Wednesday, November 2, 2011

Certainty in Opinions

Much discussion has welled up again on a familiar topic that deserves some serious thought and discussion.  Namely, on opinion and fact relative to scripture.  The discussion goes something like this:  There are undeniable truths in the Bible that are unquestioned and then there are things that are just our opinion, things that are not "Thou Shalt Not" in nature and therefore terms like "Christian liberty" would apply.  What are these things?  How do we know?  What kind of scripture can we say are applicable to all and what scripture are we to use our own judgment?  Even these questions seem loaded and problematic so the trouble is where to begin.  For this post I'm going to begin with a couple of comments that a visitor posted and then my response.  The visitor asked permission to posit the question and the comment would be visible by all in the comment section so I don't believe i'm taking any undue liberty posting it here.  First the comment:

A few questions, if I may... 1. You DO agree that Paul is clearly telling us in Romans 14 that there IS such a category as non-essential questions of opinion on which we ought to live and let live, yes? 2. I'm curious as to how large your list of "essential" matters on which Christians ought NOT disagree and where we OUGHT to argue with one another, calling into question someone else's (ie, God's) servant? I'd gladly suggest that my list of essential, non-disputable matters is pretty small. I'd limit it to matters that I think are exceedingly clear (and, to be honest, I probably wouldn't even create a list, but if I did, it would look something like this...) God is love. Humanity sins/humans have a sinful nature. Humanity needs salvation. Salvation comes by God's grace, through faith in Jesus. God cares for the "least of these" and expects us to do so as well. Those who don't - or those who oppress the least of these - will be held in judgment. Something like that. And even within that, I'd have the grace to allow some disputation about what that means. For instance: Sure, all of humanity has a sinful nature, but does that mean that a one day old infant sins? No, that is not a valid conclusion. Yes, we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus, but what does that look like? Well, I think it could look like a lot of things and I'm not sure that I could spell them all out, nor am I interested in trying. Like that. I'd have a short, flexible list because I think that, as fallible humans, we have a finite amount of genius and perfection and are quite capable of being mistaken. Oftentimes, historically, much of what we traditionally have called "GOD'S WILL," has been more a matter of opinion, rather than God stating something as fact. Thus, my list is short and gracious. How 'bout you?

Jeremy, if I may offer a few thoughts on this old post... Judge is defined as, “to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises.” Surely this is not the normally intended usage that is found to be so objectionable. Yes, I know that many people whip out "thou shalt not judge" as if it were the end all/be all command and do so at the risk of taking it out of context (as if to say, "Don't judge any body or anything!"). The thing is, if you ask most of them, of course they'll admit that it's okay to make judgements: To judge an oppressive tyrant as unfit to continue holding his office, for instance, or to judge a child abuser unfit to take care of children. Practically no one truly thinks that there should be NO judgment happening, even those who'll over-extend the "judge not" passage. Could we agree there? I'd posit that what folk are doing is reacting AGAINST an abusive of religious domination, and in so doing, sometimes, they may take it too far. As we have seen discussed over on Stan's recent post, Romans 14 makes it clear that we are NOT to be overly judgmental at least on matters of opinion, on "disputable matters." Based on this passage and other passages, clearly there ARE some matters where we ought not be judgmental or perhaps overly judgmental. I would posit that in Jesus' time, as today, there are many in the religious world who make a habit of "judging God's servant," in the sense that they lack in showing grace and christian liberty to other Christians to seek God's will. In Baptist circles, we speak of the Priesthood of the Believer, the notion that each believer is accountable to God and we ought not be sniping one another about their decisions/beliefs, AT LEAST on non-essential questions.

And now my response:

The question posed in the first comment is really about the length of list of items that are essential to the Christian faith, as opposed to those that are non-essential.  In essence we are trying to come to agreement on the items within Biblical teaching that are beyond debate and are applicable to everyone with condemnation as the result of disobedience, and everything else that we all make up our own minds and leave each other to it.  There are two elements to this question, the logical and the theological.  In terms of pure logic I believe it to be an impossible question to answer, or just a faulty question.  For there to be a list of non-negotiables that all have no choice but to consent to, there would have to be language exactly like the following: "The following items are beyond debate, non-negotiable, applicable to all people and will bring condemnation if violated..."  If that is not present then even the list that is formed could be considered merely the opinion of the one making the list.  We are all aware that debate over just such a list has gone on since the inception of the church and necessarily spawned the denominational seperation that currently exists.  I realize this is not the heart of the question.  The heart of the question is the theological one - namely, what do we adhere to unswervingly to be obedient to God and what do we let pass.

My response to the theological question is another question: what is the goal of the disciple of Christ?  Is our goal anything other than being Christlike?  Are we not being transformed into the likeness of Christ through the process of sanctification daily?  Are we not commanded in scripture to be perfect and Christ is perfect, to be holy and Christ is Holy?  The question that follows naturally is: How do I know what it is to be Christlike?  And here is the rub in this whole line of questioning.  The only way we know is by comparing our lives to what is Christlike, and the only thing we have to compare our lives to is the Word of God.  We must acknowledge the Bible as the litmus, the measuring stick against which we compare all we think, do and say.  Put together, what we are left with is the necessity to read the Bible as a complete system - Genesis to Revelation - for how to direct our lives to be conformed to the likeness of Christ.  Therefore every perfectly written principle in the Bible must be non-negotiable.  Please notice the distinction i'm making here, the human being who is the disciple of Christ is not perfect, the written Biblical principle is perfect.  Here is where the grace for one another comes in.  Grace for one another is not being silent except on issues that make our list of non-negotiables.  Grace for one another is recognizing that those who are disciples of Christ are at different places on their journey of sanctification and so we challenge one another with the whole council of God to better change our thoughts, actions and speech to better conform to the perfect Biblical principles.  I hope that is perfectly clear.  Now the only question that remains is: Is the questioner a disciple of Christ?  This is the list that is really important.  Does the questioner believe that Jesus is Lord and God, that He died on the cross and whose shed blood is the only thing efficacious for the remission of sin, the expunging of the wrath of God and able to reconcile our relationship with our Heavenly Father, and that He rose from the dead to defeat death and the grave and give the hope of eternal life in the presence of God?  That's a good place to start.

Now the second comment, which is a derivative of the first.  In relation to the particulars of judgments again the issue is motivation.  For the disciple of Christ we are to share the Truth in love for the sake of the Gospel.  We don't make judgments on activities and bring them to someone else's attention to prove our point, to be argumentative, or for any other reason than we love them and desire a change in a behavior whose principle is clearly laid out by the whole council of God through the entire Biblical system.  Again, we are all ultimately accountable to God but we are also commanded to make disciples - to let other believers know where their behavior does not line up with the clear principles of scripture, in love, for change.  Grace is not a matter of leaving well enough alone unless a behavior is recognized by both parties as essential, or addressing an issue as being on my list and so I suggest you think about considering a change unless you disagree and then I won't bring it up anymore because we differ in opinion.  Grace is saying you are wrong and need to change your behavior because your actions deviate from clear Biblical principles and I love you too much to back down, but I also understand you may not like it and it may take time for the Holy Spirit to cultivate the desire to repent in this area and change so I won't beat you up or resort to hateful language or actions to force your hand.  I hope you can see that difference.  The principle is not a matter of opinion, it is forever settled, we are to exhort one another to change where our lives are inconsistent with those principles in love without wavering.

I'll close with an illustration.  My boys and I are reading through the Chronicles of Narnia series again and tonight we are closing out Book 1 - The Magician's Nephew.  Consider the following passage:

"When he had come close up to them (the golden gates to the garden) he saw words written on the gold with silver letters; something like this:  Come in by the gold gates or not at all, Take of my fruit for others or forbear, For those who steal or those who climb my wall Shall find their hearts desire and find despair.  'Take of my fruit for others," said Digory to himself.  'Well, that's what i'm going to do.  It means I musn't eat any myself, I suppose...'I know what errand you have come on,' continued the Witch,...you are going to carry it back, untasted, to the Lion; for him to eat, for him to use.  You simpleton!  Do you know what that fruit is?  I will tell you...Eat it, Boy, eat it; and you and I will both live forever and be king and queen of this whole world...'And I suppose because she took it in the wrong way it won't work for her'...'Alas,' said Aslan, shaking his head.  'It will.  Things always work according to their nature.  She won her heart's desire...But length of days with an evil heart is only length of misery and already she begins to know it.  All get what they want; they do not always like it...'That is what would have happened, child, with a stolen apple.  It is not what will happen now.  What I give you now will bring joy.  It will not, in your world, give endless life, but it will heal.  Go.  Pluck her an apple from the Tree."

What was written on the gate was the Truth.  Stolen fruit may look sweet, but will bring despair.  In the Witch's opinion stealing or receiving was all the same.  She was wrong because her opinion did not line up with the writing on the door.  She got what she wanted, but despair as well.  By way of illustration we too must keep the perfect principle at the forefront, not our opinions about it, as well as the motiviation behind all we think, do and say.  We must only partake of the apple given us, not decide for ourselves what to eat and when to eat it and let God sort it out later.

78 comments:

  1. Some good, thoughtful commentary, Jeremy. May I offer some responses?

    You say...

    We must acknowledge the Bible as the litmus, the measuring stick against which we compare all we think, do and say.

    I find a problem with this. Let me see if I can explain why.

    1. As Christians, our goal, our desire, is to follow GOD. We wish, by God's grace, to walk in the Way of the Kingdom, to walk in Jesus' steps.

    I think we can agree to this, yes?

    2. As such, our primary litmus is God's Will, by God's grace.

    3. Now orthodox Christianity has decided (and this is important: WE have decided, God has not told us this, it is a human decision/affirmation - we need to keep that in mind for our own humility's sake, seems to me) that the 66 books of the Bible are as Scripture, to us. Some would/have disagreed on those books, whether there should be 60 or 64 or 70, but for the most part, orthodox evangelicals have decided that these 66 are as Scripture.

    4. The Bible tells us in one spot that Scripture is "God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." Beyond that, "scripture" when referred to in the NT, is almost exclusively referring to the books of the OT. Again, just a note for clarity's sake and to keep us humble.

    5. If we allow, along with most of orthodox evangelical Christianity, that the 66 books of the Bible are as Scripture to us, then we can agree that they are useful for teaching, rebuking, correction and training.

    6. Thus, I would prefer to say that God's Will is our litmus and the Bible is "useful for teaching" us about God's will. But IT is not the litmus test for how we live, God's will is.

    Can we agree on that?

    7. Now, let me point out that I recognize there is a problem with this: IF "God's Will" is our litmus, HOW DO WE KNOW GOD'S WILL? Unless God is speaking audibly to us (and God isn't), we need something to inform us, right? This is why sometimes folk fall back on the whole notion of the Bible as litmus, and I understand that.

    8. However, there is a problem with that fallback plan: HOW DO WE KNOW OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE BIBLE IS CORRECT??!!

    9. Thus, it seems to me that we are back to God's Will as being our goal and desire and we have to use prayerful, careful, graceful dependence upon God guiding us in UNDERSTANDING CORRECTLY the Bible and, more importantly, God's will.

    Agreed?

    10. This, for good and for bad, leaves us with our own God-given reasoning. Yes, our goal is God's will, not our own reasoning. Yes, the bible is useful for teaching us and shaping our understanding, but we must use our reasoning to read the Bible. Yes, we pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance, but we must use our reasoning to sort out what is and isn't the leadership of God.

    As much as it pains our frail, fallible human hearts and minds, we are stuck using our reasoning to sort these things out. Yes, we'll certainly be praying for guidance and prayerfully seeking God's will, but it remains our reasoning that says, "Hmm, this passage must mean... X" and "hmmm, this behavior does not appear to conform with God's will of love and justice..." etc.

    Can we agree on that?

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  2. And let me add, the reason I think this is important is that it seems to me that some of us (myself included, at times) have come too close to making the Bible an end unto itself, almost as if it were magical or God itself. Thus we say, "But the Bible says..." and clobber someone with the "right" understanding (ie, OUR understanding) that we have from the Bible.

    I think this was a large part of the problem that Jesus found with the Pharisees, because they KNEW the Scriptures, they even PRACTICED the scriptures, giving "a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin," but they missed the point. They missed the grace of God, because it is that GRACE which saves us, not a perfect adherence to an understanding of the Scripture.

    Jesus went on to tell the Pharisees, "But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness."

    I think this is one risk we run when we raise the Bible up to a higher level than it belongs. It's not God. It isn't the goal. It IS useful for teaching and I certainly love the Bible, but adherence to an understanding of the Bible is not my goal. Living in the Kingdom by the grace of God and IN the grace of God, in the steps of Jesus, THIS is my goal.

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  3. Dan,

    We do not agree. In fact, I think the road you are going down is quite dangerous. I think we can look just at your last sentence and your scripture reference for reason to be concerned. You said:

    "It IS useful for teaching and I certainly love the Bible, but adherence to an understanding of the Bible is not my goal. Living in the Kingdom by the grace of God and IN the grace of God, in the steps of Jesus, THIS is my goal."

    While I can appreciate your sentiment here, the question that naturally follows is: How do you know when you are Living in the steps of Jesus except that your life matches what you read in scripture? Can you see the obvious dilemma here? You say what drives you is the will of God, but how do you know what is/is not the will of God? By feeling, instinct and hunches? I do not believe God left us to our own hunches, opinions, feelings, instincts, etc. to guess at the will of God for our lives. This is the purpose of scripture - the litmus against which we can test our lives. So, if someone commented later on this blog and said the Holy Spirit told them that there are any number of ways to God so they like what Jesus said but they also go to palm readers for how to live each day, then you and I both should tell them that is NOT the Holy Spirit because there is a perfect principle throughout scripture that establishes one true God and One Mediator between God and man, namely Jesus Christ. According to what you wrote you would have to have "grace" on that individual as they are just acting in the way they seem to feel is best as they are trying to live their lives, NOT by the Bible but by living in the steps of Jesus just in a different way based on the way the "Holy Spirit" is operating in their life.

    More...

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  4. Cont'd.

    The scripture you quoted, 2 Timothy 3:16 is also telling in this discussion. Please go back and read all of Chapter 3, as in this portion of the letter to Timothy, Paul is addressing the "last days" and a warning for him of those who will "oppose the truth". Paul does instruct Timothy to look to his own life, purpose, teaching, faith, patience, love, endurance, persecutions and sufferings - all those things that Timothy will need to model in practical living. But please make special note - Paul also gives Timothy strict orders to not be deceived and turns him to the following for defense against deception: "But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." (verses 14-15, NIV) This is the context by which Paul says the Scriptures are useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training: namely, as they are able "to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus."

    So, to recap. We MUST live by the Holy Spirit according to God's Will as disciples of Christ Jesus. We MUST look to Scripture as the litmus against which our thoughts, attitudes, and interpretations are weighed. Once again, we MUST NOT decide for ourselves what to eat and what not to eat and wait for the end to find out if we have done the right thing. God did not leave us to such an existence. God provided the filling of the Holy Spirit for power and the Word of God to make us wise for salvation so we can know as we go.

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  5. How do you know when you are Living in the steps of Jesus except that your life matches what you read in scripture? Can you see the obvious dilemma here? You say what drives you is the will of God, but how do you know what is/is not the will of God?

    By prayerfully seeking God's will, including Bible study. But how do I "KNOW" with no doubt that I'm right? I don't.

    How do you KNOW with no doubt that you're right on any given point?

    If your answer is, "What the Bible says," do you see the inherent problem there? How do you KNOW that YOUR UNDERSTANDING is right with no doubt? We always come back to our reasoning, our attempts to understand an infinite God and God's ways.

    I pointed this out in my comment, I'm curious as to how specifically you can "KNOW" something is perfectly right when you study the Bible? Do you NOT use your reasoning?

    Let me give you an easy example: The Bible tells us that GOD commands us to not cut the hair on the side of our heads. This is the command that God gives Israel in the OT and it is nowhere contradicted.

    Do you, then, decide, "Well, I better not cut the hair on the side of my head," or do you use REASON to think it through and decide, "No, that was a command to a specific people at a specific time, not a universal moral for all people always?" I'm guessing the latter, and the latter involves YOUR reasoning, YOUR hunch. And as long as we're relying on our reasoning (again and always, praying for God's guidance and the leadership of the Holy Spirit), then OUR understanding is prone to mistakes.

    What do you rely upon if NOT your reasoning?

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  6. Jeremy...

    We do not agree.

    It would be helpful if you could go back and say specifically, "When you said... on THAT point, we don't agree," so I can know what you're disagreeing with specifically. Thanks!

    Jeremy...

    We MUST live by the Holy Spirit according to God's Will as disciples of Christ Jesus.

    I agree 100%.

    Jeremy...

    We MUST look to Scripture as the litmus against which our thoughts, attitudes, and interpretations are weighed.

    And on what do you base this? That is, IF you are seeking God's will and the leadership of the HS, where did God tell you that we "must look to scripture as the litmus..."?

    Or is this a conclusion that you have reached outside of the Bible's teachings?

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  7. And just to recap, where you said...

    Once again, we MUST NOT decide for ourselves what to eat and what not to eat and wait for the end to find out if we have done the right thing.

    If you're not deciding for yourself, who is telling you? The "Holy Spirit?" HOW is the HS telling you this? Do you audibly hear a voice speaking to you? If so, how do you "know" it is the HS? Is it just a "feeling" you have in your gut? If so, how do you "know" this feeling is the HS?

    My point is, Yes, we DO have to decide for ourselves, because otherwise, what else is there?

    If you say, "The HS" then I have to ask, HOW do you know it's the HS guiding you?

    If you say, "The Bible," then I have to ask, HOW do you know YOUR understanding/interpretation of the Bible is right?

    You use your reasoning, that is how. And there's no shame in that, we HAVE to use our God-given reasoning to decide things or otherwise we might just eat glass if someone tells us its what we ought to eat or that we can cut off our toes if someone tells us that is a good thing.

    God did not give us reasoning for naught, my friend.

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  8. Dan,

    Specifically what I disagree with you on are all the enumerated points you listed in your response. Your numbered point were lines of argumentation to make your point and I didn't agree with your argument or your logic in argumentation. I didn't go point by point, just disagreed with the argument in total and then provided my response.

    As to your example, my response is exactly what I wrote in my post, namely: "The only way we know is by comparing our lives to what is Christlike, and the only thing we have to compare our lives to is the Word of God. We must acknowledge the Bible as the litmus, the measuring stick against which we compare all we think, do and say. Put together, what we are left with is the necessity to read the Bible as a complete system - Genesis to Revelation - for how to direct our lives to be conformed to the likeness of Christ."

    How do I reconcile any of the Old Testament laws with New Testament teaching? I look to see where they fit into the complete system of the redemptive history of mankind - Genesis to Revelation. This requires an understanding of the function and purpose of the law, the existence of grace by faith and where Christ Jesus is relevant in the issue. Whole council of God.

    Now, your last question could be answered with "From the scripture passage from 2 Timothy we just went over, among others." There is more than one spirit vying for our allegiance, so we must test the thoughts we have against something.

    Let's get to the crux of the matter, which is as I said before, motivation. I've asked you this before in a different way so let me try again. If we are commanded to be perfect and holy, why would we base what we believe on ideas like: the Bible never explicitly says XYZ is wrong, so it is OK to practice XYZ in my life? PLEASE MAKE NOTE DAN: when answering this question, please do not use any specific examples. I do not want to move into discussion on one topic or another, just speak to the general way of thinking. Let's discuss that before getting into any one specific "XYZ" as we both know there are an infinite number of things not explicitly stated in the Bible.

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  9. Jeremy...

    Specifically what I disagree with you on are all the enumerated points you listed in your response.

    Okay then, why don't we slow it down and take it point by point? (questions I'm seeking answers on are in bold). My first point:

    1. As Christians, our goal, our desire, is to follow GOD. We wish, by God's grace, to walk in the Way of the Kingdom, to walk in Jesus' steps.

    I think we can agree to this, yes?

    And, if I may jump over to this...

    How do I reconcile any of the Old Testament laws with New Testament teaching? I look to see where they fit into the complete system of the redemptive history of mankind - Genesis to Revelation. This requires an understanding of the function and purpose of the law, the existence of grace by faith and where Christ Jesus is relevant in the issue. Whole council of God.

    You look to see where they fit in the complete system... And HOW do you do this? Is the "fit" thrust upon you so that you have no choice but to say, "Oh, so I must not cut my hair," or do you have to make some decisions yourself on how to interpret them?

    And...

    Now, your last question could be answered with "From the scripture passage from 2 Timothy we just went over, among others." There is more than one spirit vying for our allegiance, so we must test the thoughts we have against something.

    And while you're "testing," by looking at what the Bible says, HOW do you know that your interpretation is THE RIGHT ONE?

    Jeremy...

    If we are commanded to be perfect and holy, why would we base what we believe on ideas like: the Bible never explicitly says XYZ is wrong, so it is OK to practice XYZ in my life?

    I have never once said, "the Bible does not say XYZ is wrong, so it is okay to practice XYZ." THAT is not my position. Do you understand now that THAT is not my position?

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  10. Dan,

    I'm not going to look at your first point alone because it is a part of your system of thought and contains an assumption with which I don't agree that comes out later. When you say things like following God, walking in the Way and in Jesus' steps, based on your extended argumentation you mean without Scripture as the primary means with which to test the steps you are taking. I disagree with that underlying assumption and therefore cannot agree with your first point.

    You are moving on into the issue of interpretation of Scripture which we can deal with after finishing this discussion because it is directly related. However, Dan, even though you have not written out the sentence "the Bible does not say XYZ is wrong, so it is okay to practice XYZ," that is still your position. We can easily put that assertion to the test by example. If someone told you that they believe the Holy Spirit has directed them to consult with Tarot Cards, the Horoscope in the daily newspaper and a palm reader that lives next door because it was their opinion that those things are not explicitly condemned by scripture and they felt that they were still walking on the path and in the steps of Jesus; by your own written position, you would have to respond by saying that you had grace for their opinion as that is their hunch and although your hunch was they might probably be wrong you couldn't say your opinion was right and their opinion was wrong because the Bible never explicitly says Tarot Cards, Horoscopes and palm readers should not be consulted.

    This goes to the overall point. You don't have to explicitly type out the words for the position to be understood. This is why I don't think we can agree on any of this.

    Cont'd...

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  11. Cont'd...

    Can you at least acknowledge the danger of what you are saying. That someone could go so far as to say that any way to God is equally valid, or that they don't believe in God at all but they like Jesus' teachings and so in their opinion the Bible is good for general instruction but that in their opinion the Holy Spirit operates equally in all people without any sort of confession or holding to any particular doctrine. How could you ever argue they are wrong? The first three items on your list of non-negotiable items were: "God is love. Humanity sins/humans have a sinful nature. Humanity needs salvation. Salvation comes by God's grace, through faith in Jesus." What I just wrote violates all three of those, but how could you tell that person they are wrong? They have said the Holy Spirit is operating in them and there is nothing outside Holy Spirit to measure whether those statements are the will of God.

    To say that the Bible is not the litmus for Truth provided by God so that man is not left to his own opinions means you must come up with some reason it is insufficient or faulty as a basis for Truth verification. Once you do that you can no longer appeal to scripture for Truth only your opinion. But if your non-negotiable point number two is correct you cannot trust your opinion because you are sinful. Without the scripture's perfect principles against which to test what you feel, everything is left to an untrustable opinion.

    I hope you can clearly see that danger.

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  12. Jeremy...

    even though you have not written out the sentence "the Bible does not say XYZ is wrong, so it is okay to practice XYZ," that is still your position.

    No, Jeremy. It factually is NOT my position. We'll look at your example in a minute, but look at my example and you can see that objectively that it is FALSE and a HUGE MISTAKE to say that this is my position (and I know you said not to give examples, but you've given an example, so allow me to, as well, it helps prove the point):

    Bob says, "The Bible does not say that dumping toxic waste in my neighbor's yard is wrong, so it is okay for me to do so."

    DAN SAYS, "NO! It is NOT NOT NOT okay to do this simply because it's not mentioned in the Bible. That's crazy! I can't disagree strongly enough!!"

    THEREFORE, I objectively DO NOT hold the position that you just asserted I hold.

    AGREED?

    Now, looking at your example...

    If someone told you that they believe the Holy Spirit has directed them to consult with Tarot Cards, (etc) because it was their opinion that those things are not explicitly condemned by scripture and they felt that they were still walking on the path and in the steps of Jesus; by your own written position, you would have to respond by saying that you had grace for their opinion as that is their hunch and although your hunch was they might probably be wrong you couldn't say your opinion was right and their opinion was wrong because the Bible never explicitly says Tarot Cards...[etc, are wrong]

    What I MIGHT say in that position is that I can't prove that God is opposed to playing with Tarot cards. I WOULD probably posit that the HS didn't "direct" them to do so, or at least I'd ask, "BASED ON WHAT do you think the HS wants you to do this?" hopefully getting them to see that they're relying upon their own FEELINGS rather than God.

    That does NOT equate to me saying it is okay for them to do so. In that particular example, I would hold no strong position one way or the other. No harm, no foul. It would strike me as a bit silly to do so and, if they asked, I might tell them so, but I see no harm and God has NOT told me that doing so is wrong, so, yes, I'd respond with grace IN THAT SITUATION. But one instance of responding with grace (which, I should point out, IS A GOOD THING) does not equate to your supposition.

    Is that clear enough that we can agree on that, my brother?

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  13. Dan,

    Once again I think you've missed the point. In both examples you never once refer to a Biblical principle for a reason why either action is wrong: dumping toxic waste in the yard or consulting tarot cards. In one instance you say it is wrong to do, in the other you tell the person they are acting on their own feelings not on God. However, in both instances, the other individual can simply say the Holy Spirit is the source of my action/feeling. Your dissent to my action/feeling is based on your opinion and so you can't tell my i'm wrong. You would have to capitulate because they act/feel based on their feeling (as they have stated is given by the Holy Spirit) and your dissent is based on your feeling (as you have stated is given by the Holy Spirit). You would eventually would have to say you don't agree but it's OK to do because their is nothing that provides an explicit objection.

    You may never say the words, "It is OK to dump toxic waste in your neighbor's yard" but based on the above and what you have previously stated as your position you would have to capitulate because you are only operating on your opinion.

    In the second case, as believers, we had better say with full confidence and assurance: Consulting Tarot Cards is WRONG. The Holy Spirit represented in the Bible did not tell you to do that, some other spirit did. The Bible tells us that there is One Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. To find out God's will and direction for your life look to the Truth of the Word and that alone. Grace toward that person is not claiming no certain knowledge of any objection to what they are doing and allowing them to continue without such a condemnation of the activity.

    I'm not sure how much further we can go, but I will end with a comment to your statement, "hopefully getting them to see that they're relying upon their own FEELINGS rather than God." Without the Bible as a litmus, how do you know that this case is their own feelings as opposed to God? If the will of God comes by way of feeling alone, how could you ever know for sure the feeling you have about anything is actually God? With what do you delineate between feeling from God and feeling not from God?

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  14. Jeremy...

    Can you at least acknowledge the danger of what you are saying.

    I can easily acknowledge the PROBLEM of what I'm saying. IF we have to rely upon our reasoning to sort things out, then we can never "prove" we are right, as our reasoning is a flawed thing.

    In fact, I've already acknowledged this problem...

    Now, let me point out that I recognize there is a problem with this: IF "God's Will" is our litmus, HOW DO WE KNOW GOD'S WILL? Unless God is speaking audibly to us (and God isn't), we need something to inform us, right? This is why sometimes folk fall back on the whole notion of the Bible as litmus, and I understand that.

    Jeremy...

    That someone could go so far as to say that any way to God is equally valid

    I have not said, nor do I believe this. This is not my position, understood?

    Jeremy...

    or that they don't believe in God at all but they like Jesus' teachings and so in their opinion the Bible is good for general instruction but that in their opinion the Holy Spirit operates equally in all people without any sort of confession or holding to any particular doctrine. How could you ever argue they are wrong?

    The same way you would, perhaps. Or maybe not at all. Depends.

    If Bob said "I don't believe in God, but I dig Jesus' teachings..." I could agree that I, too, dig Jesus' teachings. I could look at Jesus' specific teachings, including his belief in God as his Father. I could talk with Bob a great deal about Jesus' wonderful teachings and their implications.

    I could offer Bob my opinions on all these matters and he could do with them what he will. Sort of like you could do, right?

    I'm not sure of your point here. How would you "argue" with someone with those beliefs in any way that is different than how I would? I mean, you could say, "YOU'RE WRONG! It is MY OPINION that the Bible tells us..." whatever, but you'll still be offering Bob your opinion, as would I.

    How is that different than what I'd do?

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  15. Jeremy...

    ...but how could you tell that person they are wrong? They have said the Holy Spirit is operating in them and there is nothing outside Holy Spirit to measure whether those statements are the will of God.

    What IS there outside the HS to "measure" whether those statements are the will of God?

    If you answer, "The Bible!" we're back to "WHOSE interpretation of the Bible?" You look at passage X and say, "Clearly this means 1, 2 and 3." I look at passage X and say, "well, there might be some truth to 3, but I believe it is clearly saying 4, 5 and 7..." Who decides who's right?

    Jeremy...

    To say that the Bible is not the litmus for Truth provided by God so that man is not left to his own opinions means you must come up with some reason it is insufficient or faulty as a basis for Truth verification.

    No, I need not come up with some reason to say it is insufficient. I can only point to the Bible itself and say, "God does not make the demand that the 66 books of the Bible are a litmus for Truth. God does not make that demand IN THE BIBLE and, so far as I know, God has not made that demand anywhere." And, being a person who believes in the Scriptures as being profitable for teaching, etc, I'd have to ask, "ON WHAT BASIS would we make this claim that the bible must be the litmus test?"

    If anything beyond "God's Will" is to be a litmus test, I'd think Love and Grace would be the next best more tangible litmus test. "IS this behavior a behavior based on love and grace?" If not, then that "truth" is not likely a valid truth.

    Jeremy...

    Once you do that you can no longer appeal to scripture for Truth only your opinion.

    And I'm not sure that you're getting my point, Jeremy: Our opinion IS what we have. Or, better put, our reasoning. We rely upon our reasoning to understand the Bible (of course, we're praying for the leadership of the HS, but still...). We rely upon our reasoning to understand if an idea is of God's Holy Spirit or not.

    What are you using besides your reasoning, Jeremy?

    Jeremy...

    But if your non-negotiable point number two is correct you cannot trust your opinion because you are sinful. Without the scripture's perfect principles against which to test what you feel, everything is left to an untrustable opinion.

    1. I don't think I can't trust my reasoning. I think our reasoning works relatively well most of the time. It IS our "God-given reasoning," after all, and it was not given for naught.

    2. Nonetheless, in truth and in humility, I MUST admit my reasoning is not perfect. Do you disagree for yourself? Is your reasoning perfect? I'm sure you don't think so (hope you don't think so.)

    3. Again, the Bible IS profitable for teaching, BUT, IF OUR UNDERSTANDING IS OFF, then the Scriptures aren't going to help us. If, for instance, the Bible says, "love your enemies," and we conclude that means we should forcibly have sex with our enemies, then while the Bible's teaching was perfect, our understanding was horribly wrong. Thus, we're forced by our situation to admit that we must RIGHTLY UNDERSTAND a teaching before it is perfect for us.

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  16. In both examples you never once refer to a Biblical principle for a reason why either action is wrong: dumping toxic waste in the yard or consulting tarot cards. In one instance you say it is wrong to do, in the other you tell the person they are acting on their own feelings not on God. However, in both instances, the other individual can simply say the Holy Spirit is the source of my action/feeling. Your dissent to my action/feeling is based on your opinion and so you can't tell my i'm wrong.

    Sure I can. I just did.

    We can base "wrong" on many things. We aren't limited to what the Bible says is wrong.

    For instance, I just told you that you were wrong when you said...

    "the Bible does not say XYZ is wrong, so it is okay to practice XYZ," that is still your position.

    I can EASILY tell you that you are wrong on that account because you are speaking about MY opinions/positions and I can TELL you with incredible authority, "No, that is NOT what I think, it is NOT my position, therefore, BASED ON WHAT I KNOW ABOUT mY OWN POSITION, you ARE wrong."

    I didn't need the Bible to be able to tell you you were wrong.

    For another example, I would wager that most people could agree that causing harm to innocents is wrong. It is self-evidently wrong. We do not have the right to cause harm to someone's life or liberty.

    We are NOT limited to what the Bible says is wrong to know what is and isn't wrong.

    Jeremy...

    You would have to capitulate because they act/feel based on their feeling (as they have stated is given by the Holy Spirit)

    WHY would I have to capitulate? I am telling you that I WOULD NOT capitulate. JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE SAYS "the HS told me..." is not sufficient reason for me to capitulate to them doing whatever they may want to do. What makes you think it would be?

    Jeremy...

    and your dissent is based on your feeling (as you have stated is given by the Holy Spirit). You would eventually would have to say you don't agree but it's OK to do because their is nothing that provides an explicit objection.

    But that is ridiculous, Jeremy. I don't do this in the real world. No one does. On SOME topics, we may say, "I don't agree, but whatever floats your boat..." but on OTHER topics, few rational people would just capitulate based upon someone's testimony that "God told me..."

    Jeremy...

    You may never say the words, "It is OK to dump toxic waste in your neighbor's yard" but based on the above and what you have previously stated as your position you would have to capitulate because you are only operating on your opinion.

    We ALL are operating on our opinions. But that does not make all opinions equal. For my part, I am pretty agreeable and on many topics will allow, "Okay, you believe something weird, but if there's no harm done, that's on you. Believe weird stuff all you want..."

    BUT, on behaviors/beliefs that CAUSE HARM, I sure as hell won't hold every opinion as equally valid. Here is where I THINK you're missing the boat:

    One can believe that we're all operating on opinions on matters of ethics AND YET STILL believe that not all opinions are equally valid. I can't "prove" that there is a God, nor can you. I find plenty of reason to believe in God nonetheless, but I can't prove it. Nor can I "prove" that God does not like slavery.

    BUT, I CAN prove in the real world that slavery causes harm, that pollution causes harm, that killing babies causes harm and, based on that, I can oppose such action with a great deal of authority. Legitimate authority.

    None of us can "prove" our ethics in any objective way, but that does not mean all hunches about behaviors are equally valid. That would be a crazy conclusion to reach.

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  17. Dan,

    Sadly I think we are done here. Many of the things you have written make me sad and scared for you. When you present your position for people who claim to have the directive of the Holy Spirit and are consulting Tarot Cards for direction in their lives as "No Harm. No Foul." I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry or scream. You, nor I, are in the position of saying matters of such gravity as consulting mediums does no harm and is not foul. Regardless of what you say, you CANNOT prove the reality of harm to anyone for any activity without a transcendent ought on which to base that authority. This must be the perfect Biblical principles as elucidated and testified to by the Holy Spirit. These matters are not trivial. All I can do is extend grace by telling you that you are wrong and pray that you will change and test the feelings you have against the Truth. You say that in real life you wouldn't capitulate to the one dumping toxic waste in terms of him physically dumping the waste, you'd call the police to have him arrested; but then that's obviously not what I meant. You would surely invoke the physical restraint of the law, but YOU WOULD STILL ONLY HAVE YOUR OPINION WITH WHICH TO DO IT! If he said the Holy Spirit directed him you could not say he was wrong, only you felt it was wrong and you had the law to back you up and make him stop. Based on your stated position you would still have to capitulate in your principle and say you had no objective reason to dissent, only your feeling that it was wrong.

    I know you don't understand and can't see the PROBLEM as DANGEROUS but it is. This issue will keep us from agreeing on almost every issue because it is the foundation on which we base our belief. I will be praying for you, Dan. The picture I keep getting of you is of a man on a ship in a harbor during a storm. You have a feeling that the dock will not hold up to the storm so you untie your boat from the dock. In so doing you become completely unmoored and are left being thrown about by every wave while the dock remains perfectly intact. I fear for where the waves will take you and pray you will return to be grounded, someday, on what is unmovable. Until then, i'm sure we will speak again on other issues.

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  18. I'd hope you would answer a few of the questions I asked you - more directly - before we quit, Jeremy.

    One more from you...

    I'm not going to look at your first point alone because it is a part of your system of thought and contains an assumption with which I don't agree that comes out later...

    I find it rather amazing that you can't agree to this basic statement:

    As Christians, our goal, our desire, is to follow GOD. We wish, by God's grace, to walk in the Way of the Kingdom, to walk in Jesus' steps.

    That is a basic Christian teaching. OUR GOAL is to do God's Will. Our Goal is to submit to God.

    You CAN'T agree to that? Seriously?

    Agreeing to this orthodox Christian point in no way forces you to agree with any of my other points, I was just pointing out that this is a basic Christian teaching about our goal as Christians.

    Let me try this a different way:

    Jesus commands us, "Seek FIRST the Kingdom of God and God's righteousness..."

    Do you disagree with Jesus here that this is a legitimate Christian goal? Maybe even a PRIMARY (note: "seek FIRST...") Christian goal or ideal?

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  19. Jeremy...

    When you say things like following God, walking in the Way and in Jesus' steps, based on your extended argumentation you mean without Scripture as the primary means with which to test the steps you are taking.

    My brother Jeremy, please understand, when I say things like "Following God, walking in the Way, walking in Jesus' steps..." what I mean - and this IS CERTAINLY EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN - is "Following God, walking in the Way, walking in Jesus' steps..."

    I mean exactly what I said. I don't mean something else when I said this, but rather, I mean what I said.

    I strive to do that when I communicate.

    Following God, seeking FIRST the kingdom of God, as a Christian - a follower of Christ and Christ's teachings - that is my goal.

    Period.

    Is that clear?

    Now, ONCE WE HAVE AGREED UPON THIS TEACHING FROM JESUS - that we are to seek FIRST God's kingdom - then we can discuss HOW do we do so?

    Agreed?

    (And just a note here: It appears you don't want to agree with ANYTHING I say, simply because you disagree with SOME of what I say. You know, it IS okay to agree where there is agreement, right?)

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  20. What does the Bible tell us?

    1. The Bible tells us that "Scripture is profitable for teaching, correcting, training..." and I believe this. Do we AGREE that the Bible teaches us scripture is useful for training us on how to live?

    2. The Bible also tells us that "all of Creation tells of the glory of God," and that "since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities... have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made."

    Do we AGREE that the Bible teaches us that God's qualities and nature can be learned from Creation, from what has been made?

    3. The Bible also tells us that God's law is written upon our hearts and our minds.

    Do we AGREE that the Bible teaches us that God's law is written upon our hearts and minds?

    4. The bible teaches us that, if we lack knowledge in anything, to pray.

    Do we AGREE that the Bible teaches us that prayer/contemplation is one way of gaining knowledge?

    5. The Bible tells us that respect of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

    Do we agree that respecting God is one way of gaining wisdom?

    6. The Bible says that if anyone lacks wisdom, they should ask God.

    Agreed?

    7. And I don't think it's a stretch to say that we are to, as God says in the Bible, "Come, reason together...," that we are to use our reason to sort things out.

    Agreed?

    If nothing else, from a Biblical point of view, I think we can reasonably say that engaging in each of these behaviors/attitudes is part of how we seek first God's kingdom. Can we agree on that?

    Further, the bible no where says, "THIS approach is the PRIMARY means of seeking God's kingdom," nor does the Bible say that "the Bible is to be our litmus test or measuring stick" for understanding God's Kingdom. So, FROM A BIBLICAL VIEWPOINT, I can see no reason to say that the Bible is to be our primary litmus test or measuring stick. Can we agree that this is a valid conclusion BASED UPON WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS?

    I'd be inclined to agree with ALL of what the Bible says about seeking wisdom and God's kingdom, that we do so through prayer, through Bible study, through reverence for God and God's ways, through contemplation, through reason, through God's law written on our hearts, through observation of God's nature through all of Creation, through seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance. All of the above, agreed?

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  21. Jeremy...

    Sadly I think we are done here. Many of the things you have written make me sad and scared for you.

    If so, my brother Jeremy, then I'd gladly covet your prayers and good thoughts. But I tell you what would REALLY help me: If you would say, "Dan, when you say X, I think you are mistaken and here's why..."

    Just telling me that vaguely you're concerned about me doesn't tell me where I'm going wrong.

    If you think some specific position I hold is problematic, then share your specific concerns about that specific problem.

    You sort of do this with the Tarot thing. But that was a topic you brought up and I just gave a brief answer in response. It's not anything I have given much thought to, I was just responding to YOUR example in order to look at the topic being discussed.

    I don't really want to get into the Tarot sidebar, because it is wholly unrelated to the topic here, although if you're actually concerned about my position on that topic, we could discuss it if YOU want.

    Can you understand that, from MY point of view, someone who can't say our PRIMARY concern/goal as Christians is to follow God, to seek first the Kingdom of God, that THIS is something to be concerned about, as a Christian? And the reason that concerns me is that it is a direct and dominant and fairly clear biblical teaching.

    My point in this comment is that if you have a genuine concern for a brother and if that brother is open to your words, share that concern and be specific as to what troubles you.

    Vague warnings against unspecified and unsupported "mistakes" comes too close to being gossipy and slander, rather than being of God's love.

    Jeremy, I TRULY would like you to answer ONE QUESTION from me that appears to have gone unanswered thus far, at least unanswered directly. If you could please answer this question, it would be helpful for me to understand what you're saying and, God willing, maybe helpful for you to clarify for me and yourself what you're saying. You say...

    You say that in real life you wouldn't capitulate to the one dumping toxic waste in terms of him physically dumping the waste, you'd call the police to have him arrested; but then that's obviously not what I meant. You would surely invoke the physical restraint of the law, but YOU WOULD STILL ONLY HAVE YOUR OPINION WITH WHICH TO DO IT!

    IF by "your opinion," you mean, I would have only my reasoning for opposing that behavior, then I think you're right. If you're saying that I can't "prove" this is wrong, other than an appeal to what is self-evidently right, maybe you're right.

    But what would YOU have for opposing that behavior, Brother Jeremy? If you saw a wrong being done, on what basis would you oppose it and how do you "prove" it is wrong?

    As I have stated already, appealing to the Bible is fine. It is profitable for teaching, after all. The Bible tells us that harming innocents is wrong, and thus this behavior is wrong. But on what basis would you claim that dumping waste is wrong? God has not SAID, "I hate toxic waste, don't dump it in your neighbor's yard!" So, on what basis would you oppose it?

    Would you REASON OUT that it is wrong? If so, then how is that different than what I'm doing?

    This is where I think you are totally missing what I'm saying and would appreciate your prayerful and careful response to THIS question.

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  22. Dan,

    It is quite frustrating that you won't see the point of the post and the discussion. I will try again, but i'll not be directed by you in a point by point directive to agreeing to your overall position. I will answer the particular questions, however, in a general way that is sufficient to answer them all. I believe every line in scripture to be true, as it fits into the overall system of Christian Faith from Genesis to Revelation. IT ALL MUST FIT IN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM. I do not disagree that the words you quoted are in the Bible or that they are principles we are supposed to apply to our lives. What I disagree with is using those words in any way that deviates from the system.

    I will take your position exactly from what you typed: "the bible no where says, "THIS approach is the PRIMARY means of seeking God's kingdom," nor does the Bible say that "the Bible is to be our litmus test or measuring stick" for understanding God's Kingdom. So, FROM A BIBLICAL VIEWPOINT, I can see no reason to say that the Bible is to be our primary litmus test or measuring stick." I have understood that to be your position from the beginning. And here is where i'll address your final question regarding the neighbor and toxic waste and how I would approach the issue and maybe make some headway with you on the more general approach.

    There is a biblical principle woven throughout scripture that establishes from creation man's responsibility as stewards over creation. God has given man dominion over all the earth. All creation fell as a result of man's disobedience, but is reconciled through the person of Jesus Christ. Based on our love for Christ who reconciles all things to God and who is Savior to those who confess Him as Lord we have the obligation to carry out the purpose for which we were created. Therefore, based on this Biblical principle I tell you that dumping that toxic waste anywhere (neighbors yard or anywhere else) is a violation of the principle of stewardship established by the Truth of the Word of God. I commend to you the Word and tell you to stop as a fellow believer in the name of Jesus as your witness in these matters will disqualify you for all who see in the testimony of the Gospel. Beyond that, society currently deems this practice illegal and therefore there will be legal ramifications if you continue.

    Do you see. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "Thou shalt not dump toxic waste in your neighbors yard" yet the principle is there beginning to end and so it is true. How do I know what he is doing is wrong? I may have a suspicion based on a feeling. I might be able to see the grass dying or some beautiful flowers killed in the process. I might be able to taste the difference in the water from my well. I might see him go to jail because it is against the law. But I know it's wrong and can say so outside all the rest because the Biblical principle is violated.

    We do agree that all the things you listed "seeking wisdom and God's kingdom, that we do so through prayer, through Bible study, through reverence for God and God's ways, through contemplation, through reason, through God's law written on our hearts, through observation of God's nature through all of Creation, through seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance" are what we should be doing. However, the only way we know that we're not wrong on a point, and the only way we have something solid to stand on is if it aligns with an underlying Biblical principle.

    Based on what you've written previously you don't agree, but is that at least clear? I believe it sufficiently answers the specific question you asked of me.

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  23. Jeremy, taking your last (and most critical) first...

    We do agree that all the things you listed "seeking wisdom and God's kingdom, that we do so through prayer, through Bible study, through reverence for God and God's ways, through contemplation, through reason, through God's law written on our hearts, through observation of God's nature through all of Creation, through seeking the Holy Spirit's guidance" are what we should be doing.

    Excellent! We agree on that. I thought we did.

    Jeremy...

    However, the only way we know that we're not wrong on a point, and the only way we have something solid to stand on is if it aligns with an underlying Biblical principle.

    Ah, but here we are, back to "knowing." Man, I don't know about you, but while I am EXTREMELY CONFIDENT of many of my positions and think I'm right, I won't say that I CAN'T be wrong. I see no biblical support for the notion that we humans can get to a point where we CAN'T be mistaken.

    Do you know of any biblical support for such a position, or do you agree with me that you and I CAN be mistaken on points? Especially on topics not covered in the Bible and not addressed by Jesus?

    As to "aligning with an underlying Biblical principle," I think my position on gay marriage, for instance, or on toxic waste, BOTH align with obvious underlying Biblical principles. The problem is, so do you, and you disagree with MY hunch on at least one of those topics. So, and this is the BIG point I'm trying to get to here and what I hope you can understand:

    wHO DECIDES WHO HAS THE "RIGHT" UNDERSTANDING OF UNDERLYING BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES? We're not at a place here where one of us is making excrement up and the other is striving to rely on biblical principles, WE'RE BOTH STRIVING TO RELY ON BIBLICAL PRINCIPLES, and yet, we disagree. So, who decides who's right?

    Jeremy...

    Based on what you've written previously you don't agree, but is that at least clear?

    I don't agree with what? That we can "KNOW" with no possibility that we can be mistaken? No, I see no biblical or real world support for such a position. Do you?

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  24. Continuing from the top, then...

    Jeremy...

    I believe every line in scripture to be true...

    For the record, so do I. Continuing...

    as it fits into the overall system of Christian Faith from Genesis to Revelation. IT ALL MUST FIT IN THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.
    And what is this "system" of which you speak and who decided that it is "THE system" to which all Christians must understand the Bible? Does the Bible reference this system of which you speak, or is it something you have made up or something you heard someone else refer to?

    If you are saying that the Bible should be interpreted in light of the Bible - that approach to exegesis which uses the Bible to help understand the Bible, I agree.

    If not, I'm sorry, but I don't know what system it is to which you are referring. If you are so inclined to explain, I'd be happy to read your thoughts.

    Jeremy...

    I do not disagree that the words you quoted are in the Bible or that they are principles we are supposed to apply to our lives.

    Cool.

    What I disagree with is using those words in any way that deviates from the system.

    Again, what system? WHOSE system?

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  25. Where I said...

    So, FROM A BIBLICAL VIEWPOINT, I can see no reason to say that the Bible is to be our primary litmus test or measuring stick."

    You responded...

    I have understood that to be your position from the beginning.

    ? Okay. But do you agree that the Bible does not mention this litmus test that you are referencing? And can you understand how someone who takes the Bible and its teaching seriously does not want to just pull up a "litmus test" based on someone's hunch, with no biblical backing for it? Can you agree that this is a good thing, not to just go along with someone's random whim as to how to seek God's kingdom?

    Jeremy...

    There is a biblical principle woven throughout scripture that establishes from creation man's responsibility as stewards over creation... Therefore, based on this Biblical principle I tell you that dumping that toxic waste anywhere (neighbors yard or anywhere else) is a violation of the principle of stewardship established by the Truth of the Word of God.

    Okay, and what if someone disagrees with your interpretation on this point and says, "No, the bible teaches us that this world is here for us to use and if we want to dump waste, God would bless it..."? On what basis do you think YOUR INTERPRETATION is right and his is wrong? Because your position strikes you as REASONABLE? I would AGREE. It IS reasonable.

    But can we PROVE that our hunch is right and his is wrong? Can we PROVE that God is opposed to dumping waste?

    No, what we can do is appeal to a reasonable (according to us) interpretation of the Bible and point out the irrationality of his position. But we are appealing to one another's REASON based on our understanding of God's Word, right?

    Jeremy...

    But I know it's wrong and can say so outside all the rest because the Biblical principle is violated.

    And I AGREE that this would be a violation of biblical principles. The thing is, I can't PROVE them, rather, we are appealing to what seems like a reasonable interpretation TO US. I can't say beyond all doubt, "GOD HAS COME DOWN OPPOSED TO DUMPING TOXIC WASTE," without presuming to speak for God something that God has not said.

    I feel confident in my position, but I also think we err when we presume too much to speak for God and when we presume that we CAN'T be mistaken. I have to tell you, Brother Jeremy, I'm human. I CAN be mistaken. I suspect the same is true for you, yes?

    That has been at least one of my points in all this.

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  26. OK then, we're officially done here. If you cannot see how a comment like: "And I AGREE that this would be a violation of biblical principles. The thing is, I can't PROVE them, rather, we are appealing to what seems like a reasonable interpretation TO US. I can't say beyond all doubt, "GOD HAS COME DOWN OPPOSED TO DUMPING TOXIC WASTE," without presuming to speak for God something that God has not said" makes you unable to speak up against any behavior or position whatsoever makes any further discussion impossible. You make that comment because you do not believe the first part of the verse in 2 Timothy you have quoted so much: namely that all scripture is God-breathed. Because you don't believe that anything any of us believe is merely opinion and therefore cannot be adhered to as Truth. On your view there is no Truth that can be known. Only opinions to be guessed at. You don't have to waste time writing that you never said that. We are agreed that you never wrote those letters in the comment space. Nevertheless, those are the ideas that are expressed loud and clear in your writing. However freeing it may seem to be able to claim biblical Truth must be reduced down to only one opinion against another, God did not leave us to try to decide for ourselves with a Bible that cannot be trusted and no assurance that we ever read anything rightly. I'm not sure how you can make any claim to know anything in the Bible for sure, even that Jesus is God. After all, the Bible says it but who's to say that you read it or interpreted that correctly? I guess you just keep that as your opinion until the last day and hope you were right? If you say that any point is clear in scripture that would contradict what you just wrote, namely that you can never prove any reasonable interpretation is actually True for all people. I just don't see how you can operate as a Christian that way.

    I will continue to be in prayer for you, Dan. I remain concerned that you are comfortable being completely non-comittal on any principle because of a lack of reliance on the Word of God since it is not an audible voice from Heaven and that you are not bound by the Bible other than for getting some nice opinions. I look forward to the day when I see you write in a post a firm belief as Truth based on a clear biblical principle. May the Holy Spirit shine that Truth into your heart and continue to be merciful with us both.

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  27. Thank you for the prayers, Brother Jeremy. Prayers are always a good thing, even if they're offered in a bit of a smarmy, smug manner. Thank you.

    I will just leave you with two questions that I would hope you would consider and answer. Where you say...

    On your view there is no Truth that can be known. Only opinions to be guessed at.

    You are correct that I have not said that, and I'm telling you that there is a reason why I have not said it: Because I don't believe it.

    What I HAVE said is that we can't PROVE our hunches are right. You can't PROVE that your interpretation and hunches about marriage and gay folk is what God wants. It is SUBJECTIVE, insofar as it is your opinion and you can't (can not, CAN NOT) prove that your hunch is right.

    The question I will leave with you to ponder is: IF you think you CAN prove that God is opposed to marriage between gay folk (or any of your positions, really), I would ask, HOW? HOW can you "prove" your hunches are right on this?

    And where you say...

    God did not leave us to try to decide for ourselves with a Bible that cannot be trusted and no assurance that we ever read anything rightly.

    So, are you saying, YOU CAN'T BE WRONG ABOUT ANY OF YOUR POSITIONS? Or, if you CAN be wrong about some of your positions, but not all of them, which ones are in the category that YOU CAN'T BE WRONG?

    Does that not strike you as a bit presumptuous, to presume that you CAN'T be mistaken? Do you acknowledge that there's no biblical basis to support the hunch that one can achieve perfect knowledge?

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  28. Dan,

    I'm sorry you interpreted my invocation of prayer for you as smarmy and smug. I have a genuine concern for you based on your written position and I am earnestly praying for the Holy Spirit to intervene in your heart and impress upon you the need to change. I would not have written it if I didn't mean it sincerely.

    You continue to ask questions about a position I do not hold, but your question does open a possible avenue of revelation so i'll explore it. Based on what you wrote you are equating the possibility of being mistaken on a point with every position anyone holds as merely opinion. That is an equivocation and is false. Truth is knowable. Here's how the reasonable position runs. God's Word is Truth. Find the principles that form a complete, cogent and non-contradictory system for belief. Enter into discussions and stand firm for that position until someone presents sufficient reasons why the stated position does not fit in the complete system.

    Now, I know that what I just wrote is not spelled out explicitly in the Bible line for line, but that is the point. God did give us the ability to reason and that's where such logical arrangements come from. There just are principles that fit into the Biblical system. Everything is not an opinion or a hunch.

    Here is why it is a problem, and dangerous for you. A conversation you have with a non-believer (NB) could run like this according to your written position:

    Dan T.: Jesus is the only Way to God. If anyone does not confess with his/her mouth and believe in his/her heart that Jesus is Lord then he/she will not be saved.

    NB: That's just your opinion. I interpret it differently. I have read the words in the Bible - God is love - and therefore since I love the concept of some kind of God i'm going to be alright.

    Dan T.: But in the Bible, Jesus is quoted as saying - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but through me."

    NB: Again, that's just your interpretation. I have read the same words but TO ME Jesus just means the concepts of goodness he taught are the way and that's what I believe. You really shouldn't try to push your opinion on me because you've just interpreted the words incorrectly.

    According to your position you'd have to respond in the same way you did before. I'll have grace with them. No harm. No foul. Don't you see that when you state that all is just opinion and there is no way we can PROVE and therefore KNOW then great harm and foul follows? You could not say anything to defend or preach the Gospel to that person because you have set up the standard by which you must operate and it is opinion. Refusing to acknowledge biblical principles that are True is saying that only what is explicitly stated is knowable. But that is only saying that being able to read English is the only knowledge anyone can have. That is false. You must bring in biblical principles that are true based on the entire system. Those principles are knowable and true.

    One could have a problem if they are wrong about how an idea fits into a system, because knowledge is justified true belief and they are justified in their belief. If all principles are opinion there is danger because you have cut off the branch you are standing on and speak without saying anything. I hope you will read seriously that example concerning the Gospel and see that your position leaves you in danger of not being able to expose false doctrine because you must call upon a biblical principle that fits into a system, which you purport to be only opinion.

    I pray that is clear and presented in a loving and concerned manner and in no way comes across smarmy, conceited, or smug.

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  29. Jeremy...

    I'm sorry you interpreted my invocation of prayer for you as smarmy and smug. I have a genuine concern for you based on your written position and I am earnestly praying for the Holy Spirit to intervene in your heart and impress upon you the need to change.

    I know you were sincere, and as I said, prayer is always appreciated. But just a word of advice from some idiot who has done exactly what you're doing (ie, Me): You can't really say, "Oh, you're so wrong and in such danger on this point. I know, because I'm right and you're wrong, so that's how I know. I'll pray for you..." without sounding smug and smarmy.

    Practically ANY time someone like you (or me, in the past, and maybe sometimes now) says, "wow, you're really wrong. I know better. I'll pray for you, you poor soul, that you may recognize how right I am and how wrong you are..." it comes across as condescending and patriarchal.

    Tis usually better just to pray silently, than announce it publicly, it seems to me. And its better to do disagree humbly with words such as, "Well, I just pray for God's wisdom for us both..." than with words that can't help but drip with condescension.

    Some thoughts, for what they're worth.

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  30. Jeremy...

    A conversation you have with a non-believer (NB) could run like this according to your written position:

    Dan T.: Jesus is the only Way to God... etc...

    NB: That's just your opinion. I interpret it differently.


    Just for what it's worth, that conversation would go like that above AND THEN be followed by...

    DT: Yes, it is my opinion. I can't prove to you I'm right, but it's what makes sense to me. For what it's worth.

    Whereas, I guess what you're saying is YOU would handle it like this...

    Jeremy: No. It's NOT just my opinion. I happen to know with certainty that I am right and you are wrong. I pray that you will recognize just how right I am and how wrong you are...

    ? Is THAT what you're saying is how it OUGHT to be handled?

    If so, you are running into the condescending/patriarchal problem of which I just spoke and people will dismiss you out of hand, I would suggest.

    IF that is what you're suggesting is how it OUGHT to be handled, then the difference between us would be...

    1. I don't think the Bible supports that sort of arrogance in our opinions, even when they're based (more or less) on our understanding of Scripture.

    2. I don't think that this approach works in the real world. In the real world, such confidence in one's own certainty that THEY are the right ones gets dismissed as arrogant foolishness, rather than listened to as, "Oh, well this person says they're right and that they're speaking for God, so I must listen to them..." Other than with some simple minded folk who might get taken in by such arrogance, most people would reject that authoritarianism out of hand, seems to me.

    But as always, if you are certain that you are objectively right, all you have to do is prove it, because objective ideas can be measured and proven. Whereas subjective hunches are not provable. Which isn't to say they're wrong, just that they're based on emotions, feelings and whims rather than on something solid.

    For what it's worth...

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  31. As to my questions I asked and you attempted to answer, I'm sorry but I don't quite see where you answered them.

    Based on what you said, you SEEM to be saying that, "YES, I can be wrong," is that right?

    So, where you say...

    Based on what you wrote you are equating the possibility of being mistaken on a point with every position anyone holds as merely opinion. That is an equivocation and is false. Truth is knowable.

    I agree that truth is knowable. What I'm saying is that Truth about Ethical behaviors is not PROVABLE. Do we agree on that?

    To the rest, perhaps it would be easier to deal with a specific example.

    It is my contention that God has NOT told us what God thinks of marriage between gay folk. Since God has NOT told us, we can NOT know what God thinks on that topic and say with certainty, "THIS is what God thinks on that topic..."

    Do we agree or disagree on that point?

    Further, I DO believe that we can glean Truth principles from the Bible. I believe, for the most part, they are obvious and not hard to miss.
    We ARE to love God.
    We ARE to love our neighbors, our families, our friends and even our enemies!
    We ARE to take care of the least of these, the needy, the hungry, etc.
    We DO need salvation by God's grace.
    We DO need to live lives of love and grace.

    Easy to understand and "know" principles of Truth.

    BASED UPON THESE PRINCIPLES found in the Bible, I think the Bible is clear enough that God would support healthy loving respectful marriages between folk, whether gay or straight.

    AND YET, based upon the same principles, you and yours think God does NOT support marriage between gay folk.

    We have a different idea of the notion of TRUTH as it applies to that topic.

    Now, what I'm saying is that I can't "prove" that my hunch is right on this topic and YOU can't "prove" your hunch is right on this topic.

    I don't think I'm saying anything radical here, just stating an obvious fact.

    Do you disagree with that - with the notion that neither one of us can prove that we are right on that topic, and that we can't know with certainty what God's opinion of marriage between gay folk is?

    You SEEM TO BE SAYING that you disagree, and that we can "know" the answer to that. If so, then can you prove that what you "know" is objectively true, or do you admit that what you "know" is subjective and not provable?

    That's what I'm wondering and haven't really seen a direct answer to.

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  32. Dan,

    I'm not going to move into a discussion on gay marriage with you with so much on the table relative to this example dealing with the Gospel. You didn't address the most important portion of my comment and I want you to speak to it before moving on. Following is specifically what I am referring to:

    "Dan T.: But in the Bible, Jesus is quoted as saying - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father but through me."

    NB: Again, that's just your interpretation. I have read the same words but TO ME Jesus just means the concepts of goodness he taught are the way and that's what I believe. You really shouldn't try to push your opinion on me because you've just interpreted the words incorrectly.

    According to your position you'd have to respond in the same way you did before. I'll have grace with them. No harm. No foul. Don't you see that when you state that all is just opinion and there is no way we can PROVE and therefore KNOW then great harm and foul follows? You could not say anything to defend or preach the Gospel to that person because you have set up the standard by which you must operate and it is opinion."

    You wrote in what you might say, but it still leaves the Gospel up to interpretation. Do you feel the Gospel message; namely that Jesus Christ's death on the cross and resurrection is the only means for remission of sins and salvation, is a matter of opinion where you would leave without stating it's Truth and applicability to all people? Based on what you have written previously you would have to say yes. Do you see the danger in that position.

    I'd be glad to explain how I would handle the same situation after you answer that question.

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  33. ?

    I have stated quite clearly HOW I would respond likely and I've stated that I CAN NOT PROVE my presumptions about Christianity are objectively right.

    Faith is NOT a science, my brother. We accept things ON FAITH because we can't prove them. I am not sure what you're asking here.

    You say/ask...

    You wrote in what you might say, but it still leaves the Gospel up to interpretation. Do you feel the Gospel message; namely that Jesus Christ's death on the cross and resurrection is the only means for remission of sins and salvation, is a matter of opinion where you would leave without stating it's Truth and applicability to all people?

    The Gospel IS up to interpretation. Which is not to say that there isn't a "right" answer and that there aren't "wrong" answers, but we humans HAVE to interpret it. What else can we do but interpret it?

    NO, I do NOT believe the "gospel message" is only a matter of opinion. There ARE right answers and wrong answers. What IS a matter of our own reasoning is what the Gospel message is.

    Some might say that the "gospel message is that God requires a blood sacrifice to forgive sins and God WON'T/CAN'T forgive sins unless SOMEONE PAYS WITH PERFECT BLOOD, and once the blood sacrifice happens, then God applies a little of that 'perfect blood' on each person to cover up their sins so that God can stand to be around them..." That is what SOME people reason out the Gospel is about.

    Other people have believed that the gospel message is about God having to pay a ransom to the devil because the devil "owns" all sinners and only a ransom can purchase our freedom, so Jesus served as a ransom.

    Other folk have reasoned out that the gospel message is simply a message of grace - that we are sinners in need of salvation and that salvation comes from God's grace - a gift from God to those who deserve no gift - and repentance and forgiveness.

    People have reasoned their way into explaining the gospel message many ways. And in each case, it is a matter of their opinion as to their UNDERSTANDING of the gospel.

    Which does not mean that each set of reasoning is "right," or complete, but it IS their opinion.

    But not all opinions are equally valid. Some opinions are just wrong. (If someone held the opinion that we are saved by killing off as many of the bad guys and their kids as possible, that would be a bad opinion, derived from bad reasoning.) The thing is, I can't Objectively prove that it is wrong. I can just point to MY reasoning as to why I think it is a poor understanding of the gospel.

    Do you think we can objectively "prove" that someone's interpretation of the gospel is right or wrong?

    Jeremy, when we spoke before your hiatus, I seemed to recall that you tended to engage more fully in conversations, actually answering questions that were asked of you, rather than expecting a rather one-sided conversation where you ask questions but rarely answer them. I hope that is not the case. I hope you get around to answering some of my questions, as I think they are quite reasonable and would be helpful for communication and better understanding of Truth.

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  34. Dan,

    I believe I've answered all your questions up until you went off on the gay marriage tangent. In that particular case I wanted to focus on the Gospel because to me that is of primary importance. I'd be more than happy to get back to that later.

    As to the matter of the Gospel, I didn't present a general term Gospel. I wrote specifically:

    "Do you feel the Gospel message; namely that Jesus Christ's death on the cross and resurrection is the only means for remission of sins and salvation, is a matter of opinion where you would leave without stating it's Truth and applicability to all people?"

    I'm asking you a direct question about that specific statement. Is that only opinion, or True for all people, whether they believe it or not, whether they have another opinion or not? That is the particular yes or no question I would like you to answer. Then I will answer to whatever else you'd like to ask me. It is one-sided because I don't think there is any more important question that has ever come up on my website.

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  35. I believe I HAVE answered that question directly, but I'll give it a shot again.

    "Do you feel the Gospel message; namely that Jesus Christ's death on the cross and resurrection is the only means for remission of sins and salvation, is a matter of opinion where you would leave without stating it's Truth and applicability to all people?"

    I can't answer this directly yes or no, because it's couched in terms I wouldn't use to begin with. My answer was fairly directly YES, in case you missed it, but I'll explain again.

    1. The Gospel message is, "We are saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ."

    2. That is MY understanding, MY opinion, if you prefer, of the great message from the Bible. Of course, it isn't my opinion alone, but that of the orthodox Christian church.

    3. By saying, "This is my opinion," I don't mean that I don't think I'm right. I mean, God is not here to tell us beyond all doubt, "Yes, Dan and the orthodox church have it right." It is NOT a PROVABLE statement. There is NOTHING I or you or Billy Graham can do to PROVE that statement. It is a SUBJECTIVE opinion.

    4. Subjective means, "characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind" - that is, it is ONE PERSON'S opinion of reality, not objectively provable to others.

    5. Subjective opinions are not necessarily WRONG (or RIGHT), just unprovable. It may be one person's opinion that God saves us by grace and another person's opinion that God rides a purple unicorn and wears a beanie. Neither opinion is provable, although Christians would at least have some reason for thinking there opinion is rational, if not provable.

    6. So, YES, the Gospel message - and any ONE person's (or group's) understanding of it - IS, by definition, opinion (opinion being defined by MW, "1. a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter; 2. belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge; 3. a generally held view"). It just is.

    7. Now, does that mean I DON'T think my opinion is right? No, of course not. It just means it is, by definition, OPINION.

    Am I missing your question?

    Do you have ANY reason at all to state that it ISN'T an opinion? If so, what definition of opinion are you using?

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  36. I will say, now that I think on it some, that this IS a good line of questions that gets at the exact same questions I'm asking you. WHEN we read the Bible and pray for God's leadership and the HS guidance and strive prayerfully to meditate on God's Word and understand God's message as revealed in the Bible, and in creation, and on our hearts... when we do all this and reach a conclusion, "Passage A means 1, 2 and 3," or, "THIS is what the Christian position should be on Issue X," are we using our REASON to reach that conclusion and thus, is it OUR subjective opinion, OR does God somehow thrust perfect understanding on us?

    As I've considered these questions with many conservatives (and keeping in mind that I myself was what could be described as a very traditional conservative) what appears to be the case is that you all tend to loathe to admit that anything is your opinion, or that Bible study and seeking God's will is subjective, as if by admitting that we can't "prove" we're right, then it all must be baloney.

    Of course, that is not the case. Just because we can't prove Ethical/Moral Position Z is objectively "right," does not mean that it isn't right. It's just acknowledging the nature of human nature: We simply DON'T have proof that our opinions on moral/theological questions are right. Belief is not a science, and that seems to bother some on the Religious Right, because it throws everything into question.

    Seems to me, in my experience.

    What say ye?

    Are your opinions on ANY biblical questions YOUR opinions or do you objectively have THE RIGHT ANSWER and it's provable?

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  37. Dan,

    Your answer is the reason that many people get frustrated and upset with you. I am a bit frustrated but not upset. As always I remain concerned. I didn't ask you to provide another verse of scripture that better articulates your point. It is as if you are being intentionally confusing so that you don't have to commit to anything. That's how it seems for your information, take it or leave it.

    I am excited because it does seem we are on the right track, and brings out the difference in our positions. By my examination of my concordance there are 96 references to the word "gospel" in the Bible (NIV). Your particular statement was a paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8, which says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." You say this is what you mean by gospel, but gospel is nowhere in the passage. You are taking what you believe (your system of belief, if you like) to formulate your idea of the gospel. Let's look at just one scripture references that do use the word gospel as it is translated in the NIV:

    "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as one abnormally born." 1 Corinthians 15:1-8

    In addition to that particular scripture that leaves no doubt in the matter, the word gospel itself means "good news" and based on the complete Christian belief system man was created in the image of God but chose not to live according to the purpose for which he was created and is therefore at enmity with God having no way on his own to reconcile himself with God and is in need of another to expunge the wrath of God, restore the relationship and atone for his sin of disobedience, all of which Christ accomplished by offering Himself up to be tortured, crucified and buried; then He was raised to defeat death and the grave which is GOOD NEWS for all who come to understand their sinful state and Christ as their Savior.

    Dan, this is the Gospel - that Christ Jesus died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. It is not my opinion. The whole council of God Genesis to Revelation confirms it, all the apostles knew it to be true and almost to a man gave their lives for its absolute Truth, and the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit that it is the only gospel we can preach. If you need more than that to say it is beyond your opinion I think we have a more serious problem than the definition of terms.

    I have to be away from the computer for about 20 minutes. I promised to address your questions, so i'll do that when I return, please hold your comments until after you read my responses in the next comment strand. Thanks.

    Cont,d...

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  38. Cont'd.

    Now, to your questions for me:

    "Are your opinions on ANY biblical questions YOUR opinions or do you objectively have THE RIGHT ANSWER and it's provable?"

    Where I state that I am giving my opinion on a biblical question I am giving my opinion and am open to hear anyone else's opinion. I don't expect anyone else to agree or make changes in their life based on my opinion. In terms of biblical principles I make it a practice to only speak of what I know according to the scriptures as they fit into the system of Christian belief. You constantly refer to proof and we might as well speak on that in relation to my previous on the gospel. If what you require to say that Christ died for our sins, was buried and was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures is objectively true for all people regardless of whether they believe it or not or whether they may have their own definition or opinion on the matter is for me to call out to heaven and produce Jesus Himself to tell them to their face in audible voice the He indeed is risen, then i'm afraid I cannot provide that proof.

    Likewise, on other biblical principles that fit into the overall system of Christain belief I cannot call down God Himself to tell someone face to face that what I said is from the mind and mouth of God. No one could possibly provide that proof if that is what you require. But that kind of proof is not reasonable. Knowledge is justifiable true belief. We are called by God to have faith, not by a leap in a vaccuum without any good reasons whatever, but because we have been given the Bible which has clearly modeled principles consistent within a complete system.

    It is possible for objective truth to be known without claiming to be God or have infinite knowledge. Again, think about the gospel. Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose on the third day appearing to many witnesses according to the scriptures and acknowledging that, believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that Jesus is Lord is the only way anyone can be saved. Christ's shed blood is the only means for remission of sins and salvation. That is objectively true. It is not arrogant for me to make that statement, it is simply stating and upholding the Truth. Therefore, in the case of the non-believer dialouge we went through yesterday, I can say in love that they are wrong and that they must come to accept Jesus' death and resurrection to be saved without being arrogant or haughty. It is the truth, not my opinion, and so I could not rightly represent the gospel by telling anyone that it is simply my opinion and they can go ahead believing whatever their opinion might be - I don't have the authority to take what is clear and make it a matter of opinion.

    I hope that is clear enough, especially with regard to the Gospel. I think that answers your questions, but if not i'd be happy to try again.

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  39. 1. Jeremy had problems with my answer, saying...

    Your answer is the reason that many people get frustrated and upset with you. I am a bit frustrated but not upset. As always I remain concerned. I didn't ask you to provide another verse of scripture that better articulates your point. It is as if you are being intentionally confusing so that you don't have to commit to anything.

    ? I'm afraid I TOTALLY don't understand what the problem is. You have made a vague reference to being frustrated with my answer, but you haven't said what was wrong with my answer.

    Let's look at it again.

    First, I suppose you agree that there exists the "have you stopped beating your wife?" sorts of questions? Questions that can't be answered with a straight yes or no, because they need some clarification? That was the instance with this question.

    I run into this all the time, where people reference the "wife beating" problem and then simply don't answer the question. THAT would be a problem, but I didn't do that. I clarified my problem with the first question and then proceeded to answer, given that clarification.

    You asked a question, couching salvation in terms I wouldn't use. I pointed that out. And then I answered a straightforward, YES. It IS my opinion. And then I proceeded to point out why ALL of these questions are our opinions, because we have prayerfully thought them through and came up with what makes most sense to us.

    So, dealing with THAT first, if you'd like to clarify what was "frustrating" or less than clear about my answer, feel free to point out exactly what is troubling you.

    I hope you can see that these sorts of responses (and I get them from the Right ALL the time), where someone makes VAGUE and unsupported charges/claims are problematic in themselves, because if you aren't clear about what's troubling you, there's nothing I can really do, except maybe take guesses as to what your problem was with my answer.

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  40. 2. Jeremy deals with our supposed differences. Saying...

    I am excited because it does seem we are on the right track, and brings out the difference in our positions.

    If I may summarize (and feel free to let me know if I've missed something or gone the wrong way in summarizing), to YOU it seems the problem is...

    a. Dan believes that the good news of Jesus is that we sinners can be saved by God's grace - God's gift - through faith in Jesus. Dan believes that this line from Paul sums up the Gospel message.

    b. Jeremy appears to believe that the "right" way to sum up the Gospel is this:
    that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...

    Is that a fair summary of your problem with at least that part of my answer?

    If so, I must say that in all my nearly 50 years of life and nearly 40 years as a Christian have I heard a fellow Christian say that salvation by grace through faith in Jesus is NOT the Gospel message.

    My question for you: Is that REALLY what you're saying? That salvation by grace is NOT the good news?

    If I may continue with this line of thinking...

    c. Dan would respond that Jesus DID in fact, come and die for our sins, and one could certainly LOOK at the good news that way, but that this is probably not the BEST way to summarize the Good News.

    d. Why would Dan say that? Because Jesus preached the good news throughout his life. The four Gospel books tell us this over and over. J

    Jesus himself said at the beginning of his ministry, "I have come to preach GOOD NEWS to the poor, release for the captive, etc" When asked by John the Baptist's followers if Jesus was The One, Jesus responded, "Tell John that I am preaching GOOD NEWS to the poor, etc." Jesus repeatedly went about preaching "the good news of the kingdom of God," and we have many of Jesus' sermons and teachings.

    e. AND YET, in all of those recorded sermons of Jesus, we don't have Jesus saying "THIS is the good news: I will die for your sins and raise on the third day..." We DO have Jesus in one place mentioning that he will be killed and raise again, but he doesn't reference that as the good news.

    f. From what we can see in the Gospel books, there is no indication that THAT was the message that Jesus was preaching when he went out preaching the good news of the kingdom of God, (and specifically to the poor, in a couple of instances, for what it's worth).

    g. Given all that, I don't think it the best summary to say, THIS is the good news of the kingdom of God, that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead, although, I think one could use that phrasing.

    h. I think that the BEST way to summarize it is that WE who are sinners CAN BE SAVED - and NOT by being good ourselves or anything WE can work up, but BY GOD'S GRACE! That IS Good News, my brother, can't we agree on that?

    i. Not only that, but we can see that this Good News of GRACE is a new way of living, of walking in Jesus' steps and following in Jesus' teachings a life FILLED with grace and love for our brothers and sisters - a life based NOT upon rule of the most powerful and wealthy, but based on shared grace, GOD'S grace, that grace by which we are saved and ARE BEING saved. A new Way. This Kingdom Good News would indeed be good news to the poor.

    cont'd...

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  41. 2. cont'd...

    Having said that, IF YOU find it more comfortable referring to the gospel message as salvation by God's forgiveness of our sins by Jesus' life and death upon the cross, that's okay with me. I just think that way sort of minimizes the Gospel message of GRACE and makes it sound more like a blood payment of a debt owed.

    If someone's just paying off a debt, that's not really grace - that's just a business deal. "Jeremy owed me $10,000 bucks and I was going to kick him out of his house and take it, but Jesus paid off the debt so he can stay." That kind of thing.

    That makes God sound less interested in salvation by GRACE and more interested in making sure He gets paid his bills. If salvation comes by PAYMENT, well, then it's not really grace, is it?

    That's my problem with using that imagery that you reference. Still, as long as you're using that imagery to try to refer to God's GRACE BY WHICH WE ARE SAVED, I'm okay if it makes you more comfortable.

    I would have a problem if you said that and only that is the ONE TRUE WAY to explain salvation and the gospel message.

    Which takes me to my next point...

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  42. 3. When it comes to salvation and the gospel, the Bible speaks of it in multiple ways - sometimes in ways that even sound contradictory.

    For instance, when the rich man asks Jesus SPECIFICALLY, "What must I do to be saved?" Jesus answers, "Sell your stuff, give it to the poor and follow me."

    When the jailer asks Paul what HE must do to be saved, Paul responds, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved."

    Paul tells us in Ephesians that we are SAVED by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

    Paul in 1 Corinthians says, as you noted, "that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day..." and then, a little further down, Paul says, "But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect."

    And I could go on. The point is, the salvation "plan" and gospel story is referenced in many ways in different places. I don't think ANY of those references are "wrong." I think they are ALL RIGHT, even when they seem to contradict each other.

    Why did the rich man need to sell what he had, give it to the poor and follow Jesus? Because salvation is BY GRACE, and those who are relying upon something OTHER than grace (wealth, power, prestige, magic, voodoo, blood rituals, etc, etc) are NOT following Jesus and accepting God's Grace, by which we are saved.

    Why did the jailer need to believe in Jesus and be saved? Was Paul asking him to merely affirm that Jesus existed, or even that Jesus was God? No! That head knowledge isn't what saves - rather it's the grace of God taught and modeled by Jesus that saves.

    When Paul in Corinthians says Jesus died for our sins and raised from the dead, clearly that is part of the Gospel story, but the final explanation of the Gospel story is that we are saved by GOD'S Grace, through faith in Jesus and the Way of grace He taught and modeled.

    ALL of these are part of the gospel explanation, but I think it best summed up in Paul's "for it is by grace that we are saved, through faith..."

    Question for you, Jeremy: Are you saying that we are NOT saved by grace, but rather, through a blood sacrifice?

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  43. Dan,

    Here is exactly why your responses are frustrating:

    You use a numbered list and begin each with "Jeremy says," "Jeremy deals with," etc. as if I am not the one you are addressing but anyone else who might be reading the blog thread.

    You cannot give a simple response to a simple question. It takes you four full comment pages to respond to one simple question.

    I asked you specifically about the necessity of Jesus' death on the cross and you turned that into a litany of issues you have with my position (in an enumerated list) including things I didn't say about your paraphrase of Ephesians 2:8 without ever responding to my specific reference to my quotation and extrapolation of 1 Corinthians 15:1-8.

    In these specific ways it seems that you are being intentionally evasive and trying to muddle any clear point to drown this whole discussion in vagueness so that you win over any audience of listeners with quantity of content. Those are the specific ways in which I remain frustrated but not angry and how specifically you do what I stated before "you are being intentionally confusing so you don't have to commit to anything."

    All that is just for you to take or leave, you don't need to spend two or three full comment pages numbering out all the ways you disagree. It is simply my assessment.

    I do not disagree with Ephesians 2:8. We are saved by grace through faith. But faith in what? God is gracious in that He bestowed upon all of us sinners favor we don't deserve and cannot earn. What is that favor He bestowed on us? Paul answers those questions in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8. What He did, that we have faith in, is send His Son to be a perfect sacrifice, TO PAY THE PENALTY WE DESERVE ON OUR BEHALF. It bothers me that the imagery of payment is troubling to you because that's exactly what Jesus did for you and for me. He paid the penalty we should have paid. After all, this is what redemption means, to buy us back. He also endured God's wrath that we deserved. He also reconciled us to God. He also atoned for our sins, He satisfied the legal ramifications of breaking God's laws. He did all this with His death on the cross and resurrection. I have never in all my years as a Christian known anyone to have such a hard time acknowledging the necessity of Jesus' death on the cross.

    It seems I am getting your feathers ruffled up with my insistence on this point. If you are getting angry with me i'm sorry, but as I said there is nothing more important that could possibly be discussed on this blog. I will ask a very simple question and ask you for a very simple response, after which we can move on.

    Do you believe that Jesus' death on the cross, burial and resurrection on the third day according to the Scriptures (as it is written in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8) is the only way that anyone is saved? Please bear in mind, you do not have to respond yes instead of what Ephesians 2:8 says but as an acknowledgement that it is merely how God's grace has been extended to us and the thing we are to put our faith in. This can be as simple as a yes or a no, but respond as you will.

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  44. As to my long answers:

    Jeremy, it has been my experience that those to the right of me tend to not understand my answers. I'll answer something and then they'll repeat back what they think my answer is and it will be totally opposite of my position. As a result, I tend to explain my position pretty precisely (or as much as one can in these little spaces). So understand: Long answers are my response to repeated misunderstandings. One quick example: I have referred to seeking God's will on a topic and had another person say I was relying on my own reasoning. Why did they say that? Because I did not specifically say I was seeking "THE HOLY SPIRIT'S guidance..." so I obviously (to this person) was only justifying my pre-held positions.

    And so I explain. Now you know.

    As to your concern that I'm getting angry:

    No, not in the least. I'm writing with a smile on my lips.

    To your final paragraph:

    I believe that GRACE is the only way to be saved.

    I believe that Jesus' life and death and resurrection is how God acted out that Grace, but I believe that it is GRACE which saves us. NOT a blood sacrifice.

    It appears we are approaching salvation in an opposite manner.

    I think we are saved by GRACE and because of God's grace, Jesus came, living, teaching and showing us that grace.

    You APPEAR to think that we are saved by Jesus acting as a blood sacrifice because God physically COULD NOT forgive us without somebody paying a blood sacrifice.

    That is, you appear to think the HOW we are saved is: Blood sacrifice and because of that blood sacrifice, God is able to extend us grace.

    Whereas I believe the HOW we are saved is: Grace and because of that grace, Jesus came, lived and died and rose again.

    Which is to say that you appear to believe in the extrabiblical Penal Substitutionary Theory of Atonement MUST be the one explanation of salvation and anyone who relies "merely" upon grace is not understanding salvation correctly.

    Thus our disagreement, I suspect.

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  45. Jeremy...

    then i'm afraid I cannot provide that proof.

    Likewise, on other biblical principles that fit into the overall system of Christain belief I cannot call down God Himself to tell someone face to face that what I said is from the mind and mouth of God.


    So, given that you can not prove your position, YOUR UNDERSTANDING and YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture on these points, can we agree that these are SUBJECTIVE OPINIONS, belonging to you?

    Jeremy...

    Christ's shed blood is the only means for remission of sins and salvation. That is objectively true. It is not arrogant for me to make that statement, it is simply stating and upholding the Truth.

    So here's the problem: You seem to agree that it is a subjective opinion above, but then say your opinion on that interpretation is objectively true. Objectively true means provable. Objective ideas can be measured and verified.

    You can't. These are YOUR SUBJECTIVE opinions, agreed?

    I'm not really stating anything fantastic here, Brother Jeremy. I'm just pointing out the rather obvious point that neither you nor I can prove our subjective opinions on these topics.

    It's just a real world circumstance that we should be able to agree to, there's nothing really controversial about that.

    Agreed?

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  46. Dan,

    "It appears we are approaching salvation in an opposite manner." I don't believe so. We both believe we are saved by God's grace. There is no other way we could earn salvation by our own work, therefore it must be grace. We also both agree that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is the way that grace has been extended. Because Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is the means God chose for working out the redemption of man, the blood sacrifice is the one and only way man can be saved.

    Is it possible that God could have done it another way? I'm not sure that is even a valid question. God has done things this way and so it doesn't even warrant the mental effort to think of what other way we might have been saved. My position is not extra-biblical it is a recognition of how God did set things up and so for all humankind the blood sacrifice is the only way we can be saved as it is the only way God's grace has been extended. I'm not focusing too much on the how there, and i'm fully recognizing the singularity of God's grace in the provision for our malady.

    "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1 (NIV)

    "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father - to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen." Revelation 1:5-6 (NIV)

    It is God's grace that there is a way, it is the blood that is the only means that we are freed from our sins. I'm not setting up a choice between the two.

    As to your second comment page and the issue of proof. You are again implying that what we just discussed with regard to the gospel (namely God's grace and the necessity of the Jesus' death, burial and resurrection according to the scriptures as the only way the Grace has been extended by God) is not objectively true for all people, that is just our opinion? Are you saying that God would have to provide something you could see, hear, touch, taste, or measure for it to apply to all people? To be clear, it seems you are saying that what you wrote about God's grace and Jesus' death, burial and resurrection according to the Scriptures is just your subjective opinion, is that correct?

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  47. Jeremy...

    We both believe we are saved by God's grace.

    Excellent! I'm glad we agree. This IS the historic orthodox Christian position. We ARE saved by God's grace alone, by faith in Jesus alone. Hallelujah! (or are you okay with the "alone" tagged on there?)

    Jeremy...

    We also both agree that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is the way that grace has been extended.

    A caveat: I would probably say, Jesus' LIFE, death, burial and resurrection is how God has ACTED because of God's Grace towards us. But these actions are a RESULT of God's grace, not the CAUSE of God's grace. So, where you say...

    Because Jesus' death, burial and resurrection is the means God chose for working out the redemption of man, the blood sacrifice is the one and only way man can be saved.

    It SOUNDS like you are changing from our previous agreement. The blood sacrifice is NOT what saves us. We just agreed it is God's GRACE that saves us. God's kindness. God's gift.

    God's GRACE is the one and only way humanity is saved. BECAUSE of that Grace, God came to live with us, to teach us, to show us an example, to DIE for us and to raise again, but it isn't the dying or resurrection that SAVES us, it is the Grace.

    I'm not entirely sure that you are saying we are saved by Grace ALONE through faith in Jesus, ALONE. You appear to be relying NOT upon grace, but upon a blood sacrifice.

    Is your reference to "blood sacrifice" just another way of saying, "God's has extended salvation to us BY GOD's GRACE, and so BECAUSE of God's grace, Jesus came, living, teaching, leading, DYING and raising again from the dead?"

    or are you saying, "It ISN'T grace by which we are saved, but a blood sacrifice?"

    Or are you saying, "it is by Grace AND BY a blood sacrifice that we are saved?"

    Or are you saying something else altogether?

    I'm just trying to clarify which it is you are saying.

    Let me ask it this way: If I were asked, "Are we saved BY GOD'S GRACE or BY JESUS' BLOOD SACRIFICE?" my answer would be easy: We are saved by GRACE alone! Through faith in Jesus alone! How would you respond to that question?

    Do you understand how it sounds less than clear to me, if you're saying "we are saved by grace AND by a blood sacrifice, but primarily it is the blood sacrifice that causes our salvation," then it sounds like you are no longer speaking of grace alone?

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  48. Jeremy...

    My position is not extra-biblical it is a recognition of how God did set things up and so for all humankind the blood sacrifice is the only way we can be saved as it is the only way God's grace has been extended. I'm not focusing too much on the how there, and i'm fully recognizing the singularity of God's grace in the provision for our malady.

    I'm sorry if I was not clear: What I was saying was The Penal Substitutionary THEORY of Atonement is an extrabiblical way of explaining grace. To be sure, those who hold to the PS theory are basing it upon some scriptures, JUST AS those who hold to the Ransom Theory or the Moral Example Theory of atonement base THEIR positions on some scriptures.

    Are you familiar with the various theories of Atonement, of the explaining of God's grace and our being made "right" with God?

    Jeremy...

    As to your second comment page and the issue of proof. You are again implying that what we just discussed with regard to the

    gospel... is not objectively true for all people, that is just our opinion?


    I am saying that it is not objectively PROVABLE. You have AN opinion about what salvation looks like, or what God wants in this area. I have AN OPINION about the same. But neither of us can PROVE our opinions. They are subjective in that they are WHAT MAKES SENSE TO US.

    Which is not to say that ultimately, you won't find out objectively that I was right (or vice versa - or that neither of us was right), just that right now, it is not a provable opinion. It is a SUBJECTIVE opinion.

    Does that make sense? Do you agree that your opinion about salvation is not a provable opinion?

    Jeremy...

    Are you saying that God would have to provide something you could see, hear, touch, taste, or measure for it to apply to all people?

    No. I'm saying that your hunch and my hunch about WHATEVER interpretation we might hold is NOT PROVABLE, that it is subjective in that it's OUR UNPROVABLE opinion.

    Jeremy...

    To be clear, it seems you are saying that what you wrote about God's grace and Jesus' death, burial and resurrection according to the Scriptures is just your subjective opinion, is that correct?

    MY INTERPRETATIONS of the Bible about what God wants ARE MY subjective opinion. They are not provable. YOUR interpretations of the Bible about what God wants are YOUR subjective opinions. They are not provable.

    Once again, I'm just sort of stating an observable reality here: Neither of us can prove our hunches about God are right. Which is not to say that any opinion is good and all opinions will one day be found to be right - not at all! Just that RIGHT NOW, they are our subjective opinions, by the very nature of reality (ie, we can't confirm with God or in ANY way in this world that your interpretation or mine on Topic X is the "right" one).

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  49. Dan,

    As I have written before, I have not problem with the "alone". Man cannot save himself, therefore it is necessarily the case that it is not God's grace plus anything at all. I hope that is clear.

    When you ask your question: "If I were asked, "Are we saved BY GOD'S GRACE or BY JESUS' BLOOD SACRIFICE?"" I would respond differently, without disagreeing or contradicting. I would respond by saying that question presents a false choice. We don't have to choose between the two. We are sinners. We deserve to be the recipients of God's wrath. We are alienated from God due to our disobedience. We have broken God's law and therefore there is a penalty that must be satisfied. We can do nothing about any of those things. However, God in His grace (without anything we can do) has provided for all those conditions. God's wrath has been poured out, but not on us. We have been reconciled to God. We have been redeemed. The penalty for our sin has been satisfied. The way all this was accomplished was that God Himself provided the sacrifice necessary, in the person of His Son Christ Jesus. God came to earth, was crucified, died, was buried and rose on the third day according to the scriptures.

    I understand the concern for someone saying it was the blood because they may then spur off onto some idea that they must physically kill a lamb and have a priest bless the blood and then pour it on themselves and it's no longer grace. That is not what i'm saying. It is also possible for someone to say it is God's grace and love that saves us and so as long as i'm a good person God's grace covers me as well. That would also be wrong. It is God's grace alone. Jesus' blood being shed is necessary and sufficient to atone for our sins. Both are true. I hope you agree.

    I think we can move on from there because it seems we don't disagree, I just prefer to keep the idea of the atonement in the same idea as God's grace (not as an added requirement, but as a necessary condition).

    Cont'd on the next frame for more on truth, opinion and proof...

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  50. truth, opinion and proof continuance.

    You are including proof into the idea of objective truth and i'm not entirely sure why you are adding that requirement. Objective truth does not require proof. Take for example the following statement: It is wrong to torture babies for fun. That statement is objectively true. It applies to all people at all times regardless of whether or not laws have been passed banning the activity or whether anyone believes it is the case. However, I cannot prove that it is true. Proof is not a requisite for something to be objectively or absolutely true. Some objective or absolute truths may be provable, but proof is not required.

    Here are some definitions of the terms we have been using that add weight to the above:

    "Objective - of or pertaining to that which can be known, or to that which is an object or a part of an object; existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality."

    "Subjective - relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience."

    "Opinion - a belief or judgement that rests on grounds insufficient to produce certainty."

    These definitions are the basis on which i'm making my statements. Objective truth does not require proof. It can be about a particular object that can be manipulated, tested, etc. but it does not have to be. It is something that is a part of reality apart from an observer.

    Likewise, a subjective opinion would be something that is a condition of someone's mind apart from reality that rests on grounds insufficient to produce certainty.

    In the case of the statement about torturing babies for fun and in the case of the Gospel, and in the case of biblical principles they are not just conditions of your and my mind that exist apart from reality resting on grounds insufficient to produce certainty. They exist as a part of reality that can be known and are not dependent on any observer. Therefore, biblical truth is objective truth, not subjective opinion.

    To preach the Gospel, to defend the Truth of the Word we must not imply indirectly or state directly that biblical principles only exist in our minds apart from reality resting on grounds insufficient to produce certainty. To do so is to cut off the limb you are standing on and render the message of God's grace and the necessity of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection impotent anywhere other than in your own mind.

    We may not be able to provide physical proof of the ideas and concepts that fit into the entire system of Christian belief, but that is not required for them to be objectively true. They can be known and we can be certain of them. I hope that makes my objection to your insistence on "PROOF" and that our beliefs of biblical principles as only "SUBJECTIVE OPINION" clear.

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  51. Jeremy...

    It is God's grace alone. Jesus' blood being shed is necessary and sufficient to atone for our sins. Both are true. I hope you agree.

    Jeremy, it still SOUNDS like you're saying, "It is God's grace alone. AND Jesus' blood being shed." In which case, you're not really saying "It is God's grace alone," are you?

    That is my problem with what you're saying.

    Let me ask, can you agree to this phrasing of this...

    We are saved by God's grace alone, through faith in Jesus alone. And out of God's grace and love, God came to earth in the man of Jesus, who lived, taught, led, died and rose again, DEMONSTRATING and living out that grace, by which we are saved.

    Yes? No?

    I think our disagreement here is with the verses where it references Jesus' "sacrifice." These are Pauline statements, for the most part. Paul, writing to a Jewish population (a group who was very familiar with concept of forgiveness through blood sacrifice rituals) oftentimes used the language of forgiveness with which they were all familiar.

    From the Bible basics website...

    Sin results in death (Rom. 6:23),i.e. a pouring out of the blood, which carries the life. For this reason the Israelites were expected to pour out blood each time they sinned, to remind them that sin resulted in death. "Almost all things are by the law (of Moses) purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (of sins - Heb. 9:22)

    The thing is, this "remission of sins" by the "shedding of blood" was a SYMBOL, not an actual mystical transaction. It was to REMIND the Jews of the costs of sin and how God's forgiveness (by grace, ALWAYS by grace) "covers" those sins. It was a REMINDER, not an actual transaction.

    We know this because we see that the Israelites often had to be reminded of that reminder. In Hosea 6, for instance, we see how Israel is unrepentant of its sins and God told them...

    For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
    and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.


    Jesus had to repeat this same admonition because folk were still not "getting it." From Matt 9:

    When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

    On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’


    The pharisees, God bless 'em, were the Kings of "missing the point." They sacrificed religiously, they tithed, they lived near-perfect lives oftentimes. But what were they missing??

    GRACE.

    The sacrifice was a SYMBOL. God didn't LITERALLY apply blood to the sins of the people. The Pharisees had confused the symbol (blood sacrifice) for the real thing (GRACE! MERCY! - a gracious laying down of one's life for your beloved community). Jesus POURED OUT HIS LIFE for us while on earth. Not only in his death, but in all his life. In his teachings and lifestyle, and forgiveness, and example... in all this, Jesus graciously poured out his life sacrificially.

    But NOT a literal human sacrifice in order to gather literal blood to literally apply over our sins somehow (what would that even look like?).

    I think it is very important not to confuse the symbolism with that for which it stands.

    Grace, grace, grace, God's sweet forgiving grace. THAT is what saves us.

    Amen?

    Jeremy...

    It is also possible for someone to say it is God's grace and love that saves us and so as long as i'm a good person God's grace covers me as well. That would also be wrong.

    Agreed.

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  52. Jeremy...

    These definitions are the basis on which i'm making my statements.

    Me, too (although I'll add MW's definition in a minute)...

    Jeremy...

    Objective truth does not require proof.

    The definition you quoted...

    of or pertaining to that which can be known,
    existing independent of thought
    or an observer as part of reality.

    I would add the definition from Merriam Websters, as I think it is more clear:

    of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition
    in the realm of sensible experience
    independent of individual thought and
    perceptible by all observers


    Is that still a fair definition?

    Assuming we can agree with Merriam Webster, if Bob has an opinion about God, thinking "God does not want us to do Behavior X," in what possible sense is that

    in the realm of sensible experience
    independent of individual thought and
    perceptible by all observers
    ?

    Bob might have that OPINION based upon HIS UNDERSTANDING of a passage in the Bible, but he can not DEMONSTRATE via sensible experience and indepent of individual thought and perceptible to ALL observers that he is correct. It is a SUBJECTIVE opinion, BY DEFINITION.

    Where am I mistaken?

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  53. Dan,

    "it still SOUNDS like you're saying, "It is God's grace alone. AND Jesus' blood being shed."

    I'm not. You have repeatedly said how you don't like people taking things you've written and making up things you didn't say to be overly argumentative. Please extend that same courtesy to me. You say it SOUNDS like i'm saying God's grace plus something else. I'm not. I am stating the fact that is expressed in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, 1 John 2:1, Revelation 1:5-6; namely, that a blood sacrifice was required and provided by God in the person Christ Jesus. It is simply a fact that Jesus was whipped until his back was opened up, a crown of thorns was placed on his head and beaten into his scalp, His side was pierced with a spear. Blood, physical blood was shed. A blood sacrifice was made, this was necessary and it was sufficient. It was 100% God's grace. You may not like the way I phrase that sentiment. I'm not asking you to drop the way you phrase it and adopt mine. We are agreed that it is God's grace alone plus nothing. We are agreed that Jesus had to die and be raised from the dead. I don't think we need be raising other concerns that neither of us has entertained here. You choose to say God's grace alone, period. I choose to always attached the means by which God's grace has been extended to mankind. Neither of us is wrong, let's leave it at that.

    Now to the objective, subjective issue. I have no problem with Merrium-Webster's additional verbiage. It is in the same vain as the definition from my source. I also stand by my contention that objective truth requires no proof. Do you disagree that either definition requires proof or are you OK with dropping that requirement from your argument?

    Your last statement ran like this:

    "Bob might have that OPINION based upon HIS UNDERSTANDING of a passage in the Bible, but he can not DEMONSTRATE via sensible experience and indepent of individual thought and perceptible to ALL observers that he is correct. It is a SUBJECTIVE opinion, BY DEFINITION."

    Your example is flawed. You stated to begin with that "If Bob has an opinion about God". You have already stipulated that it is Bob's opinion - which according to the defintion means something in his own mind not tied to reality and something with insufficient grounds to produce certainty. Of course that is by definition an opinion, you began by stating that it was. Let's use the example we just discussed. The Gospel.

    Let me ask you the question this way (and please re-read the definitions provided again first). Is the following statement objective or a subjective opinion - "Man is saved by Grace alone through faith alone?"

    Please don't bring in any other examples, let's start with just this question and look at the way we apply the definitions of objective and subjective opinion on something we both agree is biblically sound and then move to other applications.

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  54. That is, BY DEFINITION, a subjective statement.

    WE can not DEMONSTRATE the notion is OBJECTIVELY true via "sensible experience" and "independent of individual thought" and "perceptible to ALL observers" that the statement is correct. If you think we CAN demonstrate via "sensible experience" and "independent of individual thought" and "perceptible to ALL observers," please please do so. I HONESTLY would love to see you do that, since it is what I believe by faith.

    I'm just stating that I see no OBJECTIVE way to do so, given the English definition of "objective" and our real world limitations.

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  55. Dan,

    Thanks for the quick and simple response. It all makes sense and you made your point clearly. You believe that God's saving grace by faith in Christ Jesus is a statement that exists only in your own mind, does not portend to reality and stands on insufficient grounds to produce certainty (i.e. it is subjective). This is the definition of subjective opinion and you believe this is correct. I'll submit this to you as the negative case, you believe the statement "Man is saved by God's grace alone by faith alone in Christ Jesus" is not objectively true but is rather a subjective opinion.

    You have again added to the definition of objective a condition that is not required. You said, "WE can not DEMONSTRATE the notion is OBJECTIVELY true via ..." I notice that you have replaced PROVE with DEMONSTRATE. While I appreciate you discontinuing your use of the word PROOF, the additional requirement of demonstration is also invalid. By definition, a statement is either objectively true or it is not. Here is the definition again, as you rendered it including the Merrium-Webster verbiage:

    "Of or pertaining to that which can be known,
    existing independent of thought
    or an observer as part of reality. Of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition
    in the realm of sensible experience
    independent of individual thought and
    perceptible by all observers." Notice please there is no requirement for demonstrating or proving its objectivity. The statement either is objectively true or it is not.

    Let me put it this way. Man can be saved by God's grace alone, by faith alone in Christ Jesus is a knowable condition of reality that is independent of any observers preferences albeit perceptable by all as part of the human condition. I'll submit that as the positive case, and why the statement is objectively true.

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  56. Jeremy...

    You believe that God's saving grace by faith in Christ Jesus is a statement that exists only in your own mind, does not portend to reality and stands on insufficient grounds to produce certainty (i.e. it is subjective)

    No, Jeremy, that is NOT my position. It is not the definition of Subjective which I'm using. Here are Merriam Webster's definitions of Subjective:

    of or relating to the essential being of that which has substance, qualities, attributes, or relations

    characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind


    In THAT sense, THAT statement is SUBJECTIVE, by definition. The statement has no substance, qualities or attributes which we can confirm. It is reality AS PERCEIVED, rather than Reality as can be confirmed independent of mind.

    I'm not sure where you got your definition, but it's not a good one. "Only in the mind?" "Does not portend to reality??" I've never heard subjective defined in those ways.

    The last part of your definition I could agree to. There are insufficient grounds (ie, Measurable evidence) to produce certainty.

    Again, it's called "faith," not "science."

    Further, as I have already pointed out, not only does that statement fit the definition of Subjective, it does NOT fit the definition of Objective.

    But IF you can objectively prove that statement, I'd really really like to see you do so. Honestly. Or at least give it a shot.

    Please? If we could see what you mean by "objective" evidence, maybe it could help clarify things.

    Where you say...

    Notice please there is no requirement for demonstrating or proving its objectivity.

    No, the word "demonstrate" nor "prove" is literally in the definition, but it IS there. Look again:

    Objective: existing independent of thought (ie, whatever person A may think about it is irrelevant, person B should be able to observe notice the condition, too)

    or an observer as part of reality. Of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience (ie, IN THE REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE - it can be seen, touched, tested, measured, weighed, SENSED... DEMONSTRATED.)

    perceptible by all observers. (ie, it can be perceived, observed, shown to ALL observers, regardless of one's OPINIONS)

    If you don't like the terms demonstrate or prove, then SHOW me your evidence that is OBSERVABLE, PERCEPTIBLE, IN THE REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE for that statement.

    Now, as I've already pointed out, something being objective DOES NOT MEAN that it isn't True or Real. I think that is where we're parting ways. You seem to feel that Objective is Good and Real and Subjective is Bad and Fake or False. No, no, that would be poor understandings of the words. They simply means whether or not an idea/throught/circumstance can be observed by everyone in the real world.

    We can't see, observe, measure or otherwise sense intelligent alien life on other worlds. That does not mean they objectively don't exist, just that we can't objectively say they DO exist. (Not saying there is or isn't intelligent alien life, just using that as a demonstration of what I'm speaking of).

    Is it possible you have a different - perhaps wrong? - understanding of the words Subjective and Objective than I do?

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  57. Dan,

    My source for these definitions is the Unabridged Random House Dictionary of the English Language. But either way, i'm alright again using your Merrium-Webster definition. Let's look at the definition you provided carefully.

    "characteristic of or belonging to reality as perceived rather than as independent of mind" notice the last portion carefully, rather than as independent of mind. If something exists independent of mind that means that it doesn't matter if you think it or not it still exists as true in reality. Because the definition you give states explicitly RATHER THAN, then what is subjective is dependent on your mind not independent of your mind. That's just what it means and I don't see why you would see it necessary to argue with that.

    Secondly, you are still placing undo requirements on these ideas. Why do you keep doing that? First you used PROVE, then you used DEMONSTRATE and now you've added CONFIRMED. Why do you persist in adding that requirement? It seems you have a personal bias toward requiring physical proof for something to be true for all people and I don't know where you get that. I gave you an example to which you didn't respond. "It is wrong to torture babies for fun." That statement is objectively true for all people for all time. It is also impossible to physically prove. What say you?

    Now, you have asked me in what way the statement "Man is saved by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ Jesus" exists as a part of reality, independent of thought but perceptible to all people. Let me answer that as best I can.

    Guilt and shame are an undeniable part of the reality of human existence. Rituals across cultures have been practiced in all recorded history in an attempt to make right wrongs that have been done. The only entity to which such an offering could be made and be efficacious, however, must be one that has come from one that is transcendent and personal. The only provision for this is what is outlined in the Bible in the person of Christ Jesus according the concept of God's grace which is completely independent of man's contribution.

    The anxiety of death, the anxiety of meaninglessness and the anxiety of condemnation are a part of the reality of human existence. These anxieties have driven men to seek answers for the fears that develop and the drive to conquer those fears. Attempts to be courageous in overcoming those anxieties through the self or as being a part of a collective (whether it be national pride, governmental states, or even staunch Church dogmatism) is successful. Only the transcendence of both the self and the collective can overcome these anxieties. This transcendent entity cannot be impersonal because doubt would always remain as a factor in death, meaningless and condemnation. Only a personal transcendent entity satisfies the provision for being courageous to overcome the anxiety of death, meaninglessness and condemnation. The Biblical worldview (God's grace acting on behalf of mankind to mete out a personal relationship in the person of Christ Jesus) is capable of handling a personal relationship with the transcendent.

    I submit these two arguments (like the statement concerning the wrongness of torturing babies for fun) for the objective truth of the statement "Man is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus" as it exists as a part of reality, independent of thought but perceptible to all people.

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  58. Cont'd.

    Apart from the issue of definition and the philosophical argumentation based on the reality of guilt, shame and anxiety presented above. I would like to register the strongest possible objection to your statement:

    "The last part of your definition I could agree to. There are insufficient grounds (ie, Measurable evidence) to produce certainty."

    It is inconceivable to me that you would hold to a position and spend the time over a span of almost a week and over 50 comments in a thread over something you don't believe with certainty. Are you really so unsure of the veracity and applicability to all people of Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection and the absolute desperate need of all people of God's grace that you would say you believe the words in the Bible to be true but have insufficient grounds to know it with certainty? How are you going to fulfill the command we have in Scripture to preach the gospel and defend right doctrine if you don't have sufficient grounds to believe it with certainty.

    Based on that portion of the definition alone I would completely exclude the term subjective from anything remotely concerned with the Gospel. I beg you to reconsider your usage of that term for the sake of the Gospel and even the possible inference to any other believer or non-believer that these matters are so trivial as to only rise to the level of "insufficient grounds for certainty." These matters are life and death. The only reason I have this blog and enter into these conversations is because I believe there are more than adequate grounds to know the certainty of my personal desperate need for God's grace and the truth that only in Christ Jesus is my faith rightly placed. This is no cerebral argumentation just a passionate plea from a sinner saved by grace by a Holy and Righteous God who would consider me.

    Please accept that insistence and rigid affirmation in the loving and humble manner in which I intend it.

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  59. Jeremy...

    If something exists independent of mind that means that it doesn't matter if you think it or not it still exists as true in reality. Because the definition you give states explicitly RATHER THAN, then what is subjective is dependent on your mind not independent of your mind.

    That's just what it means and I don't see why you would see it necessary to argue with that.


    Look at it this way: We both believe that God exists. Objectively so.

    That is, we both BELIEVE that God is a real Entity, one that exists whether or not WE believe God exists.

    With me so far?

    But I'm not speaking of God. I'm speaking of AN ARGUMENT (ie, a point, a position).

    That God exists, we both BELIEVE. And yet, we can NOT argue OBJECTIVELY that God exists. We can't point to proof that is outside of ourselves and our beliefs that are independently verifiable and undeniable or that don't have other possible explanations.

    I'm not speaking of God or God's thoughts (which you and I both BELIEVE exist - we have FAITH that God and God's ideals exist objectively).

    That is NOT what I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of our ARGUMENTS or POSITIONS about God. Our ARGUMENTS are subjective, in that there is no real world evidence that is observable, measurable and otherwise able to be confirmed by our senses (as per the definition.)

    Jeremy...

    Secondly, you are still placing undo requirements on these ideas. Why do you keep doing that? First you used PROVE, then you used DEMONSTRATE and now you've added CONFIRMED. Why do you persist in adding that requirement? It seems you have a personal bias toward requiring physical proof...

    Jeremy, PHYSICALITY is in the definition. Look at it again...

    Objective:

    1. of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE
    independent of individual thought and
    perceptible by all observers

    2. involving or deriving from sense perception
    or experience with actual objects, conditions, or phenomena

    The definition SAYS it is SENSE-ABLE, PERCEIVE-ABLE, we can sense, see, feel, touch, weigh, measure some OBJECT, PHENOMENA, or CONDITION in the REAL WORLD.

    As much as I love God and believe in God, God is simply not measurable, touch-able, perceivable by ALL observers.

    AN ARGUMENT FOR GOD is, by definition NOT objective, but rather SUBJECTIVE.

    Which is not to say that GOD is not objective, just that OUR ARGUMENTS FOR GOD are.

    Are you seeing the difference?

    Can I repeat a question that I think has gone un-answered?

    Do you believe that subjective = bad and/or false/fake? That seems to be the problem here.

    None of us can prove objectively OUR ARGUMENTS for a belief or moral value.

    We can SAY, for instance, that torturing babies is self-evidently immoral and no one will disagree with you, but we can't really make an objective argument against it. What "ACTUAL object, phenomena or condition" can we ALL independently PERCEIVE in the "real world" of "sensible experience" to show that our argument in favor of God or against torture is objectively right?

    There is no harm in saying that a belief is subjective, if that is what it is.

    Out of time...

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  60. Dan,

    "Can I repeat a question that I think has gone un-answered?

    Do you believe that subjective = bad and/or false/fake? That seems to be the problem here.

    None of us can prove objectively OUR ARGUMENTS for a belief or moral value."

    No. Subjective does not equal bad, fake or false. It could be bad, fake or false but not necessarily so. It does mean held on grounds insufficient to produce certainty. That is in the definition. That is not the problem.

    The problem is that you cannot see that things can exist in the physical realm and yet be unmeasureable. I didn't say the definition of objective doesn't deal with the physical realm, after all, everything I have posited as objective I have stipulated exists as a part of reality, i.e. is a part of the physical world. That's not a problem. You stating that everything in the physical realm must be MEASURABLE, or PROVABLE, or DEMONSTRATED remains a requirement that you are adding. Those words are not in the definition. Read it again and type out for me where the words measureable, proveable or demonstrable appear. Exist in the physical realm, absolutely. Must be able to be physically measureable, absolutely not.

    Just step back for one minute and think about what you are saying. You are suggesting that until someone invents a wrongness measuring device that can physically measure wrongness that we can never successfully argue with certainty that torturing babies for fun is objectively wrong. You don't see a problem there? You don't believe there are sufficient grounds to be certain it is wrong. Read the definition of subjective and objective again. "Of or pertaining to...", "Of, or relating to..." Torturing babies for fun, or ideas and arguments pertaining to torturing babies for fun exist on insufficient grounds for certainty.

    I'll assume you didn't have time to read through the two arguments I submitted for your consideration or the personal comment afterward. But please go back and read those. Also, please consider that you are making the same argument atheists give for putting God on the same level as a make believe flying spaghetti monster. Anthying of or relating to God (i.e. God Himself and any idea, argument or position including anything related with God) is based only in the minds of the person claiming to be a Christian and is based on insufficient grounds to produce certainty. I'm really flummoxed and to why i'm even having this back and forth with another believer. Again, please just step back for a few moments and think carefully about the definitions and what you are doing by remaining persistent in the subjectivity (insufficient grounds for certainty) of these arguments and ideas pertaining to the Gospel.

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  61. Jeremy...

    Now, you have asked me in what way the statement "Man is saved by Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ Jesus" exists as a part of reality, independent of thought but perceptible to all people. Let me answer that as best I can.

    Thanks.

    Jeremy...

    Guilt and shame are an undeniable part of the reality of human existence.

    Agreed.

    Jeremy...

    Rituals across cultures have been practiced in all recorded history in an attempt to make right wrongs that have been done.

    Agreed.

    Jeremy...

    The only entity to which such an offering could be made and be efficacious, however, must be one that has come from one that is transcendent and personal.

    And right here, you have moved into subjective opinion, seems to me.

    What objective real world, indepently observable in the realm of sensible experience do you offer for this conclusion?

    YES, I think we can objectively say that Guilt is a real world, observable phenomena.

    Yes, we can say that SOME people have tried to deal with guilt via ritual. Others have tried to deal with guilt in other ways. But you have stepped from observable phenomena into subjective opinion with your move to suggesting "offerings" can be made and "Must be" to "one that is transcendent and personal."

    What real world observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience would you offer to support this hypothesis?

    Jeremy...

    The only provision for this is what is outlined in the Bible in the person of Christ Jesus according the concept of God's grace which is completely independent of man's contribution.

    ? How is this statement objective? What real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience are you offering to support this hunch?

    Jeremy...

    The anxiety of death, the anxiety of meaninglessness and the anxiety of condemnation are a part of the reality of human existence.

    Agreed. These are real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience.

    Jeremy...

    These anxieties have driven men to seek answers for the fears that develop and the drive to conquer those fears.

    Agreed. These are real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience.

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  62. Jeremy...

    Attempts to be courageous in overcoming those anxieties through the self or as being a part of a collective (whether it be national pride, governmental states, or even staunch Church dogmatism) is successful.

    ? I guess I can agree. I think one can argue that at least SOME (but not all) attempts to be courageous and overcome these anxieties have been successful, to varying degrees.

    Jeremy...

    Only the transcendence of both the self and the collective can overcome these anxieties.

    Not sure that I can agree that this is a real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience. If you're speaking of anxieties about death, meaninglessness and condemnation, one might argue that individuals apart from the collective have overcome these anxieties. Indeed, one might argue that SOME individuals have overcome these anxieties in SPITE of the collective.

    I'd sort of want to agree with you, here, but I'm just saying I am not convinced this is an objective statement. Where is the "real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience" support for this argument?

    Jeremy...

    This transcendent entity cannot be impersonal because doubt would always remain as a factor in death, meaningless and condemnation. Only a personal transcendent entity satisfies the provision for being courageous to overcome the anxiety of death, meaninglessness and condemnation.

    Again, I don't see any "real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience" support for this statement, it appears to be just a statement of opinion.

    Jeremy...

    The Biblical worldview (God's grace acting on behalf of mankind to mete out a personal relationship in the person of Christ Jesus) is capable of handling a personal relationship with the transcendent.

    Agreed, I guess, although, I don't see ANYTHING objective in that comment. Where is the "real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience" support for this conclusion?

    Jeremy...

    I submit these two arguments (like the statement concerning the wrongness of torturing babies for fun) for the objective truth of the statement "Man is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus" as it exists as a part of reality, independent of thought but perceptible to all people.

    I'm sorry, but I don't see much in the way of "real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience" points to support most of what you've said. You make a FINE argument for a FAITH in God here, I just don't see much objective about it.

    What am I missing? (I'd think it easiest to take just ONE point and show where your "real world, independently observable phenomena in the realm of sensible experience" support is for your argument.

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  63. Jeremy...

    Apart from the issue of definition and the philosophical argumentation based on the reality of guilt, shame and anxiety presented above. I would like to register the strongest possible objection to your statement:

    "The last part of your definition I could agree to. There are insufficient grounds (ie, Measurable evidence) to produce certainty."

    It is inconceivable to me that you would hold to a position and spend the time over a span of almost a week and over 50 comments in a thread over something you don't believe with certainty.


    One can be convinced of something personally that one can't make an objective case for. Beyond that, not all subjective opinions are created equal. Some are more rational, if not objective, than others.

    Do I know for certain that God does not want me to kill my enemy or to engage in wars where I would kill my enemies and their children? No, I don't. But I am confident enough in my position that it is the right one that I hold to it strongly.

    Jeremy...

    Are you really so unsure of the veracity and applicability to all people of Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection and the absolute desperate need of all people of God's grace that you would say you believe the words in the Bible to be true but have insufficient grounds to know it with certainty?

    1. I am NOT unsure at all of the Truths of Jesus' life, teachings and death and their applicability to all of us.
    2. I am just saying that in the real world, given the normal definition of "objective," that I can't demonstrate objectively the Truth of my position.
    3. I am just saying that subjectively believing something - having faith in the assurance of things hoped for (SUBJECTIVITY), the conviction of things not seen (SUBJECTIVITY) - is not a bad thing. Just because OUR faith is in that which is unseen and unmeasurable does not mean that it is to be taken lightly.

    Jeremy...

    How are you going to fulfill the command we have in Scripture to preach the gospel and defend right doctrine if you don't have sufficient grounds to believe it with certainty.

    Humbly, with confidence in God's grace, not in my fallible knowledge.

    Jeremy...

    Based on that portion of the definition alone I would completely exclude the term subjective from anything remotely concerned with the Gospel.

    You are free to do so, I just don't much evidence to support your conclusion.

    Jeremy...

    I beg you to reconsider your usage of that term for the sake of the Gospel and even the possible inference to any other believer or non-believer that these matters are so trivial as to only rise to the level of "insufficient grounds for certainty."

    I have considered and reconsidered. Thanks for the suggestion. I shall continue to consider these points.

    I would ask that you reconsider your certainty in your own objectivity and wisdom. Our faith is NOT in our worldly wisdom, but in God's grace, through FAITH in Christ. I would posit that more harm is done in the name of people acting in the "certainty" of their own understandings than is done in the humility of saying, "I can't say for sure." In fact, I would be willing to say OBJECTIVELY, more harm is done in the name of that sort of certainty than in that sort of humility.

    Prayerfully consider it, my brother?

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  64. Dan,

    I'm not sure where else we can go. We disagree at the level of the primary definition of what the words "objective" and "subjective" mean. I will comment on your last line and then, I guess we are done.

    You said: "I would ask that you reconsider your certainty in your own objectivity and wisdom. Our faith is NOT in our worldly wisdom, but in God's grace, through FAITH in Christ. I would posit that more harm is done in the name of people acting in the "certainty" of their own understandings than is done in the humility of saying, "I can't say for sure." In fact, I would be willing to say OBJECTIVELY, more harm is done in the name of that sort of certainty than in that sort of humility."

    This is exactly my point. I am not operating on MY OWN objectivity or wisdom just those things that exist as part of reality, perceptible by all and exist on sufficient grounds to be confident in. Like the three stage argument I presented. According to your view it is impossible for anyone to be objective on any point because they can't produce measurable evidence for it. And yet, in your last sentence you are willing to say objectively that more harm is done in the name of being certain than saying "I can't say for sure". Dan, you can provide measurable evidence for that claim. You don't have a harm-meter that analyzes a statement and has a needle that passes the center line into the "red-zone" of harm. You can't quantify and measure harm so according to your own requirement the statement you claim to be objective must be subjective. This is the circle you are running in, and apparently can't step back far enough to see. For things to exist and yet no one can know for certain that they exist by being able to produce measurable evidence for it, they would have to be brute facts of the universe that only someone with infinite knowledge could know. But you have agreed that shame, guilt and anxiety exist in this world. These things are not measurable and so you must have infinite knowledge to have any confidence in their existence. And around and around you go. Ultimately, Dan, if you are consistent in your position when asked whether God exists or not you would have to say "He just does." You can't measure God so you can't be certain of His existence as an objectively true idea, concept or truth claim and so all you have is a hunch. "He just does." Once again, this is where atheists try to put Christians. Nothing to be certain of, just stipulating brute facts of the Universe and operating on an entirely subjective, opinion-only fairy tale like a flying spaghetti monster.

    God did not leave us with such insufficient ground for belief that we can never be certain. That does not discount faith. Faith is not a complete leap in the dark, but that's what you make it when you refuse to part from your added requirement of measurable evidence for objectivity.

    I have sufficient grounds to be certain you disagree on almost all of the points I just made, so i'll go ahead and stipulate the objective truth that apart from a fundamental change of heart we will not agree. I have no measurable evidence for that idea, but it is also not just my hunch or opinion.

    As a parting thought, i'm really glad to have been through this with you. I've really thought deeply about all these issues again and have re-confirmed how solid the ground is for being confident in the ability of humankind to know God through robust and logical philosophical arguments (in some cases), through the Word of God and through personal experience with a Savior. It has been very beneficial, thanks for spending your time this last week or so.

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  65. Jeremy, first off, I would ask you if you prayerfully considered what I had to say, seeking God's will and not just to defend your position?

    Beyond that, you said...

    According to your view it is impossible for anyone to be objective on any point

    No, just on points WHERE THEY CAN'T produce OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE. I can OBJECTIVELY say, "X behavior causes harm because..." and then proceed to list the observable harm it has caused.

    I am NOT saying there is no such thing as objectively knowing something. Do you understand that?

    Continuing then...

    ...because they can't produce measurable evidence for it.

    Again, I'm saying that THOSE THINGS which can produce OBJECTIVE evidence can be affirmed to be objectively known.

    Those things which can NOT produce objective evidence can NOT be objectively known.

    By definition.

    Matters of faith are subjective, by nature. Which IS NOT TO SAY that there is not objectively a God (obviously, I think there is), just that we can't objectively PROVE or demonstrate it.

    I'm not saying God doesn't exist objectively, I'm saying our arguments for God or God's position are not objective.

    Do you see the difference?

    Jeremy...

    And yet, in your last sentence you are willing to say objectively that more harm is done in the name of being certain than saying "I can't say for sure". Dan, you can [I think you meant "can't" dt] provide measurable evidence for that claim.

    Yes, I CAN provide evidence for this. THINGS WHICH CAN BE independently observed, measured, tested, shown in the real world, CAN be objectively known. THOSE THINGS WHICH CAN'T be independently observed, measured, tested in the real world CAN'T be objectively known.

    HARM can be measured and observed. The CRUSADES caused measurable HARM by those convinced of their righteous opinions. The 9/11 attacks caused measurable harm by those convinced of their righteous opinions.

    Harm is absolutely measurable (of course, the various TYPES and DEPTHS of harm can be debated, but the harm is measurable, once we agreed on the terms of "harm.")

    It is just a function of reality, I really am not sure where the question is in all this.

    I SUSPECT that you're confusing God's OBJECTIVE reality (which both of us HAVE FAITH IN) with OUR ARGUMENTS for God or God's positions. The former WE BELIEVE to be absolutely objectively real. The LATTER are our subjective opinions.

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  66. Jeremy...

    God did not leave us with such insufficient ground for belief that we can never be certain.

    Then it should be easy enough to provide certain facts to support your position objectively. Choose any small topic of your choice:

    God is opposed to gay folk marrying.

    God is opposed to slavery.

    God wants us to love our enemies.

    Whatever topic you want, and provide certain objective evidence to support it.

    Objective: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE
    independent of individual thought and
    perceptible by all observers

    You say at the beginning of your last comment that...

    We disagree at the level of the primary definition of what the words "objective" and "subjective" mean

    Earlier, you said you AGREED with the definition I provided. Now, are you saying you DON'T think something "in the REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE
    independent of individual thought and
    perceptible by all observers" is a good definition? If so, then what definition would you propose?

    So, as to this...

    Dan, you [can't] provide measurable evidence for that claim. You don't have a harm-meter that analyzes a statement and has a needle that passes the center line into the "red-zone" of harm

    Yes, I CAN provide evidence. Harm IS a measurable real world phenomena that can be defined, tested, observed, seen, measured.

    Your opinion about what God thinks on a given topic, however, is BY DEFINITION not objective. It is YOUR OPINION. Subjective, not measurable.

    As are my opinions. There is no harm in admitting that. It's just reality.

    Thank you for your respectful thoughts.

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  67. Dan,

    I'm not confusing the two. As I said I have thought deeply about the issue including what you have written and I disagree with the inclusion of measurable evidence and your non-committal to the certainty of the ideas and arguments pertaining to the numerous examples presented. I also remain concerned, although much more informed, as to how our differences here effect how we handle the Word and then the things we uphold and celebrate as legitimate and acceptable before God. All these things have been well established. Thanks again, until next time...

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  68. Oops, you wrote another after I thought you were done.

    I cannot provide what you are stipulating because of what you are asking for, Dan. You say:

    "Whatever topic you want, and provide certain objective evidence to support it." I already have for all the topics I brought up. If you can't acknowledge what i've already provided why should I move on to make the same arguments for other topics, you will reject them for the same reason you rejected the others. As I have stated before, you have a problem because you interchange equally evidence, proof and measurable as if all arguments and ideas must be quantifiable to be objective. We've been through this over and over, it is where we disagree.

    Again, you say: "Your opinion about what God thinks on a given topic, however, is BY DEFINITION not objective. It is YOUR OPINION." You have again begun by stipulating something is my opinion and then followed up by re-iterating that it then follows that it is my opinion. If you're going to go ahead and categorize all I know and say about God as opinion then you are assuming yourself correct and then affirming your assumed correctness. That'll work every time. Again, where we disagree is that everything I know and say about God is just my opinion. We've been over this before too.

    You are contradicting yourself again in the area of harm. Of course harm exists objectively as perceived by all people just like guilt, shame, and anxiety. You can see the effects of harm, guilt, shame and anxiety and in some cases measure them. But you have just said that arguments are all subjective, they can't be measured just stated as opinion. Don't you see the trap you have set for yourself and walked into? Your idea, your comment, your argument for more or less harm is only your opinion. It's subjective so you can be certain of that argument, only that harm is done in this world, nothing more.

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  69. Correction: My last thought should read - "Your idea, your comment, your argument for more or less harm is only your opinion. It's subjective so you cannot be certain of that argument, only that harm is done in this world, nothing more."

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  70. Jeremy...

    That'll work every time. Again, where we disagree is that everything I know and say about God is just my opinion.

    If your opinions about God are not your opinions, whose are they?

    I've been thinking on this more and think we're really on to some place where we (you, I, Stan, etc) MAY be able to agree, if we just think it through a bit. If I may, one last time (hopefully)...

    The definition of Objective (which I've broken down into four groupings to help clarify the definition, hopefully):

    of, relating to, or being an
    1. object, phenomenon, or condition
    2. in the REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE
    3. independent of individual thought and
    4. perceptible by all observers


    Now, if someone comes into my house and says, "There are TEN CARS on Main St right at this minute..." THAT Truth claim can be verified. We can go outside and OBSERVE independently with OUR SENSE of sight and COUNT and CONFIRM that there are indeed, ten cars on Main St right at that moment. Or, that there AREN'T ten cars.

    The claim can be confirmed in the real world by any and all observers, regardless of what their OPINIONS are about anything.

    With me so far?

    Now, you and I and all of us God-believers (or maybe I should say MOST of us God-believers) believe that God objectively exists. We believe that there are some behaviors that are objectively good or bad/right or wrong.

    This is our FIRM BELIEF.

    With me so far?

    cont'd...

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  71. Now the difference between OUR BELIEF which we make claims to and the claim about the cars is that the Car claim can be independently verified and observed by all as objectively true using the standard Merriam Webster definition I've provided.

    The ability to appeal to some THING is what makes it an objective statement. We can appeal to our senses and confirm the statement is objectively true.

    The thing that is different with our BELIEF is that the THING which we might appeal is NOT in the "realm of sensible experience" nor is it currently "perceptible to all observers."

    Thus, by definition, our claim is objectively confirmable.

    God may or may not exist, we can't see, touch or otherwise confirm that. God may or may not have opinion about behavior X, we can't see, touch or otherwise confirm that. There is NOTHING TO WHICH WE CAN APPEAL to confirm our claim independently in the realm of experience that is perceptible to all observers.

    Agreed?

    Now, I KNOW the objection will be, "Ah! But we DO have something! We have THE BIBLE to which we can appeal!"

    The problem there is that the Bible is a text and we'd have to be able to confirm in the realm of experience in a manner perceptible to all observers that any and all of its passages (and their possible meanings) are objectively true, and WE CAN'T DO THAT. So, appealing to the Bible does not give us an objective source to which we can appeal, because we must interpret the Bible and its meanings and that enters into the realm of subjective.

    With me so far?

    So, ONE DAY, we will all see that God IS objectively real and that God's opinion about behavior X is This or That. Objectively. BECAUSE we'll have some THING to which we can appeal in the "realm of experience" that is "perceptible to all observers."

    Or at least, that's what we all think here.

    But, for NOW, OUR BELIEFS about God and God's opinion, those BELIEFS are, by definition, objective, even though the reality IS objectively true or not.

    Does that make sense? Separating OUR BELIEFS (our opinions, our interpretations, our, our, our) because THOSE BELIEFS are SUBJECTIVE because they are factually NOT "In the realm of experience" and "perceptible for all observers..." separating THOSE CLAIMS we make BASED ON OUR BELIEFS out as subjective, even though ultimately, we WILL be able to say OBJECTIVELY, "behold, our Lord and God!"

    It's just that we can't objectively say so now, because it does not fit the definition of Objective.

    What say ye? Can we agree on that, when considered in that way? If not, where is the problem with my reasoning and where IN THE REALM OF EXPERIENCE and PERCEPTIBLE TO ALL OBSERVERS" is the support for these claims?

    As a side note, has anyone here studied the field of Objective Morality? And, if so, do you know if those theorists use a different definition of "objective?"

    Peace.

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  72. Sorry, there were at least a couple of confusing typos in there. Using "objective" where I meant "subjective," for instance and saying, "Thus, by definition, our claim is objectively confirmable" where I meant "NOT objectively confirmable..."

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  73. "That'll work every time. Again, where we disagree is that everything I know and say about God is just my opinion.

    If your opinions about God are not your opinions, whose are they?"

    If you will read what I wrote in full you will the context in which I made that statement. Of course my opinions about God are mine and they are opinions, that is stipulated in the term "my opinions". However, when I state an objective truth about God, like man is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus, I am not asserting that it is my opinion, rather that it is an objective truth about God - you are the one who says it is only a statement of opinion. Does that make the distinction clear?

    Good example with the car for many different reasons. Hopefully the best will be clarity with regard to the text of the Bible. You say "There are TEN CARS on Main St right at this minute..." THAT Truth claim can be verified. We can go outside and OBSERVE independently with OUR SENSE of sight and COUNT and CONFIRM that there are indeed, ten cars on Main St right at that moment. Or, that there AREN'T ten cars."

    That is a truth claim that can be confirmed by the sense of sight, touch and intelligence (using math correctly to count to ten). It is also perceived by all others using their eyeballs and physical ability to put their eyes on those ten cars. No argument from me on those points. Here is where we part ways, you are requiring perception to be sight, touch, taste, etc. In other words, only by physically measurable and quantifiable means. What about if the person who was told "There are TEN cars on Main St. right at this minute" was blind and bed-ridden? When people came to say things like "I counted them myself", "lots of other people saw ten cars and agreed" or "I counted them and described the entire account here in braille so you can read it for yourself" would those statements have to viewed as subjective opinion because the individual had no way to physically measure and verify the statements? Would the existence of the ten cars by objectively true but the claims made about the cars be only subjective opinion? Is the only reason both are objective in this case because the car is a physical object that it is possible to put your hands on? Think about those questions carefully and how the requirements for physically measurable verification actually work out for something be it a physical entity, and idea or an argument.

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  74. Cont'd.

    This is the exact line of reasoning i've been trying to use all along with you. If a thing is objectively true then ideas or arguments or other things pertaining to them are objectively true as they are consistent with what's known. They aren't subjective opinion just because they are ideas or arguments as opposed to measurable objects. We perceive things with more than just the five physical senses, we have an intellect and a mind that operates in the realm of reality but in the non-measurable parts of reality. We also have feelings (and here feelings are emotional in nature) which are not physically measurable but also operate in reality.

    You are adding the requirement to perception that you added to evidence, namely physically measurable verification. That is a possible condition of objectivity not a necessary one. I hope that is also clear.

    Now as to the Bible and why we are so adamant about not thinking in terms of subjective opinion across the board. Yes, we agree the Bible is a written document, but we do not believe with certainty that God exists (i.e. objectively true) because the Bible says so and since the Bible is something I can physically put my hands on it is the case. We perceive God through all the realms of reality I just described above, our 5 physical senses, our intellect, our emotions. This is how amazingly robust Scripture is! Think of how the scriptures tell us we are to know God: we see His handiwork in all creation, we are transformed by the renewing of our mind, we are to come into relationship with God in an intimate way as modeled by Christ and His relationship with the church (bridegroom and bride). We do not have just a reliable Biblical text, we also have physically verifiable evidences throughout creation, we also have emotional attachments evidenced by a changed life and differing response in light of the feelings of guilt, shame and anxiety perceived by all mankind. Arguing consistently with something objectively true (perceived in any of the ways just listed) is not by a subjective opinion just because it exists as an argument or idea. It is possible to show where biblical principles are objectively true as they are consistent with what can be perceived by all people (whether physically measurable, mentally recognizable or emotionally identifiable) and exist in the realm of sensible experience and are independent of individual thought (are the case even if everyone refuses to believe its true).

    I have read as much as I can and my understanding of objective morality is this very same definition and understanding of the sensory extending beyond the physically measurable to mental recognition and emotional identification. These are exactly the non-measurable senses I have appealed to for the objectivity of the moral statement that it is wrong to torture babies for fun. You haven't ever responded to the objectivity or subjectivity of that non-measurable statement, perhaps you'd like to now?

    I know this is a lot to digest so please take your time. It will most likely be late tonight or tomorrow before I return to this thread.

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  75. Jeremy...

    We perceive God through all the realms of reality I just described above, our 5 physical senses, our intellect, our emotions.

    But we don't ALL perceive "God" independently in the realm of sensible experience in a way that is perceptible to all observers, right?

    We observe PHENOMENA and TRAITS and, TO YOU AND ME, these SUGGEST TO US the existence of a God, but that is DEPENDENT on the individual person, thus subjective, OUR OBSERVATIONS are not conclusively and objectively God themselves. They just suggest TO US God. Other people would have other interpretations and understandings.

    Right?

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  76. For instance, "we see His handiwork in all creation," That may be what YOU AND I see when we see the countless stars and the intricate patterns of nature, but that is a dependent observation, not an independent one. Others reach other conclusions. Thus, not objective, right?

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  77. Jeremy...

    That is a truth claim that can be confirmed by the sense of sight, touch and intelligence (using math correctly to count to ten). It is also perceived by all others using their eyeballs and physical ability to put their eyes on those ten cars. No argument from me on those points. Here is where we part ways, you are requiring perception to be sight, touch, taste, etc. In other words, only by physically measurable and quantifiable means.

    I'm saying that is inherent in the definition of the word "Objective." Again, the definition...

    a Thing
    IN THE REALM OF SENSIBLE EXPERIENCE
    independent of individual thought and
    PERCEPTIBLE BY ALL OBSERVERS.

    That's all I'm saying. Given THAT DEFINITION of objective, phenomena and ideas OUTSIDE the realm of sensible experience are not, by definition, objective.

    Where am I wrong in that?

    It seems to me you may be operating out of another understanding of "objective." And, if so, there's no problem. We can look at your understanding of the word and go from there. I'm just saying that Things outside of the realm of sensible experience are NOT objective by THAT definition.

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  78. Dan,

    You are raising the same questions and making the same objections for the same reasons. I've tried numerous different ways to answer those same questions using examples of my own, systematic arguments and even taking one of your examples and describing the situation. We part ways in two places in particular. You repeatedly put in all caps the portions of the definition "objective" in the realm of sensible experience and perceptible by all observers. I have provided examples and arguments for how sensible experience and perception is not limited to physically measurable evidences. You continue to add the requirement for physically measurable evidences and reject the very simple and undeniable examples i've given for sensible experience and perception. There is no need for you to list them all again, this is just where we disagree.

    Secondly, in the definitions of subjective opinion you have no problem with the issue of "insufficient grounds for certainty" which I find utterly unfathomable and as I have said find that phrase alone worthy of rejecting that idea relative to things like the Gospel. Here again, you need not repeat your objections, you have stated them over and over.

    These are the two places in particular we differ on this. As I stated before, the more we have hashed this out and the more I have thought about it the more convinced I am of the confidence any believer can and should have in clearly modeled Biblical principles as objectively true and applicable. I also believe a position of subjective opinion across the board for any idea or argument due to their inability to be physically measured is unsustainable without rendering anything said with regard to any concept in the Bible completely meaningless. I know you disagree, you need not repeat that objection.

    I'll just leave you, and this thread, with a repeat copy of a previous comment. Please just read and consider that again in parting.

    ""The last part of your definition I could agree to. There are insufficient grounds (ie, Measurable evidence) to produce certainty."

    Based on that portion of the definition alone I would completely exclude the term subjective from anything remotely concerned with the Gospel. I beg you to reconsider your usage of that term for the sake of the Gospel and even the possible inference to any other believer or non-believer that these matters are so trivial as to only rise to the level of "insufficient grounds for certainty." These matters are life and death."

    We've been through all the intellectual argumentation but please carefully consider whether you continued usage of "subjective opinion" has the potential to cause another believer that you may have influence over to question the veracity and assurance they have in God's existence, the Truth of His Word, and the confidence in the surety of the finished work of salvation accomplished by Christ by His death according to the Scriptures, burial and being raised on the third day according to the Scriptures. Is the possibility of putting that stumbling block in front of another believer worth the risk of it's continued usage? May the Holy Spirit guide you in that decision.

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