Friday, January 13, 2012

Dangerous Territory

I have been in a discussion on another blog site for a few days and a theme has developed that I felt important enough to address on its own.  Here is how the thinking is presented without reference to a specific topic so we can concentrate on the framing of the position and not the details of the issue.

"I read explicitly the words of the Bible on topic X, but the Bible does not make any explicit statements about a corollary topic X'.  Since the Bible is silent on topic X' I look at the world around me.  Contemporary culture says that topic X' should be viewed equitably with topic X.  Based on the observations I have made in the culture surrounding me in my every day life I conclude that topic X' is acceptable Biblically and further determine that I should accept and celebrate topic X' and treat it as equitable with topic X."

Is this a logical, proper and reasonable way for sincere Christians to think in areas where the Bible does not explicitly state anything regarding a specific topic?  I would say this is very dangerous territory and that this line of thinking is logical is not proper and is not reasonable for sincere Christians.

The line of thinking is logical because it begins with a proposition, states the assumptions and forms a conclusion.  That is all that is required to make a logical argument.  The conclusion is either true or false based on the myriad rules of logic that govern such matters.  So, the line of thinking is at least logical in that sense.  More on this point later.

The line of thinking is not, however, proper or reasonable and I will only present one reason below as it should be the only reason necessary.

God is Holy.

Is it really as simple as that?  Yes, I believe it is.  Think of the assumption made in the logic developed in the position.  If there is no explicit wording in the Bible for a position (X' in our faceless example) then we look to contemporary culture and the observations we make there to determine what is Biblically acceptable.  Did you catch that - look to contemporary culture to determine what is Biblically acceptable.  What is the danger there?  It seems obvious - the popular majority of contemporary culture will in the main behave contrary to God's will.  Granting that the law of God is written on the heart of man such that all recognize moral categories and non-Christians can do good things, this is not the requirement of the Christian.  God did not call us to be good.  Be holy, be perfect, be conformed to the likeness of Christ, live worthy of the calling to which you have been called - these are the requirements for disciples of Christ.  Even more striking is the dangerous ground on which one stands by using this reasoning, at it is similar to Pascal's wager: what if you are wrong?  Since you don't know because the Bible does not explicitly cover topic X' if one looks to contemporary culture and celebrates topic X' and deems it equitable Biblically with topic X and is wrong, what is been done is a profaning of that which is sacred.  Holding such a viewpoint is the trivialize the Holiness of God in that we are willing to make extensions of God based on the world around us which we are certain is fallen and by and large is still fighting against God.

If the mistake is made and the person is a disciple of Christ, whose sins have been atoned for by acceptance of Christ at the atoning sacrifice for sins then His blood will cover that sin as well.  But how are we to live our lives as believers?  The knowledge of what was done on our behalf and the resultant love we have for our Lord and Savior should drive us to desire to glorify God in every way and not tread on such dangerous ground, clearly placing ourselves in the terrible position of endorsing and celebrating that which is against God's will.  This should be reason enough to decry such an approach.

51 comments:

  1. I am saddened (but not shocked) that a person who calls himself/herself a Christian (not suggesting whether or not its true) would "look to contemporary culture" to determine what is moral. It neglects the standard condition of Man -- sinners hostile to God. It neglects the command of Scripture (1 John 2:15). It ignores the fact that, unless God has had a marked influence in a culture (say, a major revival or something), all human cultures devolve morally. It's not very smart. (I would suggest, however, that there is very little to which the Bible doesn't address itself, at least in principle.)

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  2. Stan,

    It is saddening that this approach to basing views that we present as Biblical would be considered legitimate. This post (as well as my comments on the other blog site) was intended to boil things down to what I perceived to be the most fundamental level, which based on the context was how to determine what extensions to make from what is explicitly stated in scripture. Many will argue that the Bible doesn't say anything about certain topics because they are not explicitly stated in the form of "Thou shalt not" or "thus says the Lord", which in their mind opens up all of scripture (except in some certain circumstances) to individual interpretation (which seems to mean no one can really know what the Bible says about anything so we all just do the best we can and hope for the best). I've thought long and hard about how to approach that issue, and I believe this issue of the Holiness and love for God that even those propounding this situation claim to have would drive for those individuals an agnostic ceiling. That would mean not condemning issues because in their minds the Bible doesn't say anything about it, but out of recognition that God is Holy and the love of that Holy God drives out an acceptance or celebration of such issues for fear of even the possible grieving of a Holy God they love. It seems reasonable if the Bible truly says nothing, they don't want to make extensions beyond the explicit, they recognize God is Holy, and they would put the love of God as an important directive for their lives. I hope it is at least compelling as an argument.

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  3. Jeremy...

    Since the Bible is silent on topic X' I look at the world around me. Contemporary culture says that topic X' should be viewed equitably with topic X.

    If you are referring to our recent conversations, this is not at all representative of my argument. Rather, on topic on which the Bible is silent, I say we look to the Bible for general principles (love=good, hate=bad, oppression=bad, fidelity=good, etc) and use our God-given reasoning to sort things out. I said nothing referencing the suggestion that we should look to "contemporary culture."

    I DID say we can look to reason and evidence and go where the evidence leads. IF, for instance, the real-world evidence on topic X is A, B and C are TRUE and some religious traditions hold that A, B and C are false and maybe even EVIL, then I would suggest that the religious tradition may well be wrong and since religious traditions are the traditions of fallible humanity, that is always a possibility.

    If you're referencing some other discussion, then carry on. It has been my experience, though Jeremy, that opponents who try to summarize what "the Other" has to say oft-times don't represent it well, due to their own fallible nature and so, it may be best to stick to actual quotes than trying to summarize and risk misrepresenting the Others' position.

    Just a suggestion.

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  4. I DO have a series of questions from our previous conversation that went unanswered there that I would like to repeat here, if that's okay (and it is on this topic, so it is fitting)...

    We are agreed that we are fallible, capable of being mistaken.

    Yet, you go on to say it is possible to "know" God's will. I'm curious as to what you mean by this.

    "Know," in what sense?

    If, for instance, you are certain that you "know" the Bible rationally teaches that abortions should not be legalized, should not be done, and thus, you "know" God's will on that issue, how do you also know that you aren't mistaken on that issue?

    Are you saying there are SOME issues not covered in the Bible on which you can certainly know withOUT fear of being mistaken on that issue what God's opinion is?

    If so, what are those? What is your criteria for including them in the "know-without-risk-of-being-mistaken" category?

    Thanks.

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  5. Dan T.,

    Although I have had similar discussions and have been thinking about my response to this general line of reasoning for some time, the discussion I referenced was the one we had. Since you have stated my misrepresentation of your view, I am listing a link to the full discussion below:

    For those reading in and who may choose to follow this link, please be aware that although I have addressed a general line of thinking, the specific topic of the post on this website has content of a mature nature, with some graphic descriptions and language that may not be appropriate for some readers. Please be aware of this before hand and for information, the discussion thread has gone beyond 200 comments and the material pertinent here occurs around comment 120 or so and runs as part of the thread through approximately comment 160. That disclaimer being provided here is the link that can be copied and pasted into a browser window:

    http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=9149193&postID=4293379805450547913

    Now, by way of more brief excerpt here are a few paragraphs you wrote (to make sure to capture context as well) about your own view:

    “Because I believe that logically and biblically, marriage is a good thing, that licentiousness and "corking up" your sexuality is a bad thing and, given what the Bible DOES say, I find the position logically and biblically sound that God would approve two people committing in love and fidelity. I can't prove it, the Bible doesn't say it, but it seems rationally and biblically sound to me.”

    “And I still fall back to the difference in my position and yours is that, in addition to my opinion, I have rational, observable moral values to support my position, in addition to my hunch about what God thinks, whereas you all seem to only have what you think God thinks.”

    “I'm not trying to discern cultural issues through MY INTERPRETATION of the Bible, rather, I'm striving to discern cultural issues through God's Will, which is my goal. The Bible (which I have to reason my way through), my reason, real world evidence, God's Spirit, God's Word writ upon my heart... these ALL can contribute to my better understanding God's will, but they ALL depend on our own good reasoning, and that includes OUR UNDERSTANDING of the Bible.”

    So, from what I read your view is that you have your opinion, observable moral values, and real world evidence that you combine with your reason, God's will, God's Spirit, and God's Word writ upon your heart to determine what is biblically sound. I suppose I don't know how what I wrote is misrepresentative of your stated position. From whence do you arrive at real world evidence if not from the world in which you live at the present time? Contemporary culture is simply the world in which you currently live, so it can be taken to mean "real world experience" or "observable moral values."

    It seems your quarrel is with grammatical semantics. My concern is with the proposition that I proposed, which you did not address. Are you concerned that you might possibly be wrong in your assessment and could be endorsing and celebrating a behavior that is illegitimate? In other words, could you address what I phrased in the post as a question similar to Pascal's wager.

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  6. Dan T.,

    As for the questions you asked:

    You wrote: "We are agreed that we are fallible, capable of being mistaken.

    Yet, you go on to say it is possible to "know" God's will. I'm curious as to what you mean by this."

    The same way I know that you are asking me a question about how it is possible to "know" God's will. I read what you wrote. I will not presume to understand why this concept is so difficult for you, especially with regard to my post. My guess is that our conversation is throwing you because I have not condemned anything. This is a very important point so please don't miss it.

    My position is that the Bible is unquestionably clear and explicit on position X because it is written for anyone to read without puzzle or question as to the meaning. Biblically position X is endorsed as legitimate by God which can be known to be His will because it is clearly and explicitly written. Therefore I hold position X to be legitimate and do not recognize another arrangement.

    Your position is that the Bible is unquestionably clear and explicit on position X. The Bible says nothing about corollary position X'. In your opinion there are some generally good qualities in the Bible related or concerning position X. When you look at "real world evidence," "observable moral values," contemporary culture you observe position X' being endorsed and celebrated. You embrace and celebrate position X' as being biblically sound.

    This is the difference - I am willing to let the Bible stand as it is on position X and determine not to recognize position X' based on my own opinions, what I experience in the world around me at the present time in which I live, or what I observe as current moral values. You add on, or incorporate into what is plain in scripture, your own opinions, what you experience in the world around you at the present time in which you live and what you observe as current moral values.

    Any way you slice it, you are looking at what is clear and explicit in scripture testing that against what you are currently experiencing in the world around you, and calling the resultant your opinion of God's will and celebrating and endorsing that activity.

    I hope you can see that quite clearly now. I would also bring you back once again to the point of the post. You have expressed elsewhere a desire to live according to God's will to the best of your ability (my own paraphrase of your written words as I do not have time to find a quote, so I hope that at least does your stated objective accurately if not exactly). That being your goal, and if revering God's Holiness is also a priority, then would it not concern you to have endorsed and celebrated an activity based on extra-biblical criteria added to the explicitly written Word?

    Please note once again, and I repeat for emphasis, I am not suggesting you openly condemn position X'. We haven't gotten so far as to even discuss that. I am granting you the hypothetical in this general example that the Bible is completely silent on position X'. What I am asking you to consider is the possibly dangerous ground on which you stand when you take this line.

    Thanks for reading and considering these points.

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  7. Thank you for attempting to address this, Jeremy.

    1. We ALL live in this current world and we ALL are beginning with our modern sensibilities. None of us are ancient Hebrews or first century Christians. Agreed?

    2. None of us are in a position to perfectly know God's will. Agreed?

    3. To write something like "Dan is saying, 'based on the observations on the CULTURE SURROUNDING ME...' that 'topic X is acceptable biblically..." is to misunderstand my position a great deal. Can you hear me saying right now that this is NOT my position?

    That is, I am NOT saying "On topic X, which is not covered in the Bible, looking at the culture surrounding me, I think that topic X is acceptable biblically..."

    4. What I WOULD say that we ALL do is, "Behavior X is not covered in the Bible. However, being loving IS covered, being faithful to God IS covered, acting with kindness and compassion towards others IS covered, speaking up for Truth and Righteousness IS covered... all these general truths/behaviors ARE covered in the Bible. Further, if we look at someone engaged in Behavior X and we see NO EVIDENCE that they are contradicting any of these general truths of the Bible, and further, we see that Behavior X CAN BE a great endorsement/living out of these general truths/behaviors, then it seems rational that behavior X DOES live up to these general ideals..."

    I think we all should be able to agree with that.

    The difference seems to me to be that the emphasis is NOT on "This is what I see happening in the culture around me," but rather, "Whatsoever things are right, pure, good, just, lovely..." and the notion that we can use our God-given reason to sort those things out. Agreed?

    5. Let's plug in a few real world and hopefully easy examples to "behavior X" to test the supposition.

    "Being opposed to killing the children of our enemy is not endorsed in the Bible. However, loving our enemies, not shedding innocent blood, looking out for the least of these, not harming the little ones... these ARE all covered in the Bible. Therefore, we can say that opposing killing our enemies' children DOES live up to biblical standards."

    or...

    "Helping a person with a bad heart get a heart transplant is not endorsed in the Bible. However, loving our neighbors, tending to the sick, helping the least of these, taking care of our bodies... these ARE all covered in the Bible. Therefore, we can reasonably say that helping a person with a bad heart get a heart transplant DOES live up to biblical standards."

    Do we agree to these real world examples that aren't covered in the Bible, Jeremy?

    6. Do we further agree that we can reasonably hold positions on moral issues that aren't covered in the Bible?

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  8. Jeremy asked...

    Are you concerned that you might possibly be wrong in your assessment and could be endorsing and celebrating a behavior that is illegitimate?

    A. We are fallible humans and we are all (you, Stan, me, St Peter, St Paul... ALL of us) capable of being mistaken.

    B. Our ability to be mistaken, though, should not stop us from taking positions on moral issues, we should just do so humbly and respectfully. Agreed?

    C. The Bible never tells us that it's NOT okay to drop a nuclear bomb on a city full of men, women and children, but that does not mean we can't take a position on the immorality of such behavior. Agreed?

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  9. Jeremy...

    My position is that the Bible is unquestionably clear and explicit on position X because it is written for anyone to read without puzzle or question as to the meaning. Biblically position X is endorsed as legitimate by God which can be known to be His will because it is clearly and explicitly written.

    So, let me use an example to get a clarification from you:

    The Bible (and specifically Jesus) tells us to love our enemies, to overcome evil with good, to turn the other cheek and many other similar teachings.

    The Bible is unquestionably clear and explicit on that topic and it is written for anyone to read without puzzle or question as to Jesus' intent on the topic of loving our enemies and doing good to those who hate you.

    Therefore, clearly Christians CAN NOT go to war. It would be a sin for Christians to take part in killing their enemies (or the enemies of their state, or the children of those enemies). The bible is clear on the topic because of these many passages that are abundantly clear. Additionally, we have the example of the early church for its first several hundred years.

    Christians can't go to war without sinning.

    Are we agreed on that?

    Let me presume to answer for you: Your answer is likely...

    NO, we DON'T agree. Christians going to war is NOT a sin.

    If so, then let me continue:

    But, I SAID that the Bible was clear on this point. I cited the abundantly clear passages about Christians and they're enemies. I cited the early church's own traditions/behaviors on this topic. How am I wrong?

    Presuming to answer for you again (feel free to correct me, if I make a mistake)...

    You are wrong because you are making a leap in logic from what the Bible says. Yes! Jesus commands us to love our enemies, to turn the other cheek, to do GOOD to those who hate us, but you leap from that to, 'THEREFORE, Christians ought not go to war...' and that is a leap from what the Bible says to YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION...

    Correct?

    If so, how is that different in my "knowing" that God is clear on this position (which admittedly, is not directly stated in the Bible) and YOUR "knowing" that God is clear on marriage equity (which, admittedly, is not directly stated in the Bible)?

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  10. Jeremy...

    This is the difference - I am willing to let the Bible stand as it is on position X and determine not to recognize position X' based on my own opinions, what I experience in the world around me at the present time in which I live, or what I observe as current moral values. You add on, or incorporate into what is plain in scripture, your own opinions, what you experience in the world around you at the present time in which you live and what you observe as current moral values.

    Jeremy, it would be a mistake to say that I "add on" ANYTHING. That is exactly the point. I'm not choosing to speak for God what God has not said.

    But, YOU ALL are adding on to Scripture that which is not there. The Bible no where condemns marriage equity, but you presume to conflate "men don't lay with men" with any and all possible gay behavior. I think what you're failing to recognize as adding on is this: Men shall not lie with men IS A UNIVERSAL PROSCRIPTION against any and all gay sexual behavior.

    You are NOT willing to let the Bible stand as it is on position X. Watch:

    The rules in the OT were given explicitly to the ancient Jewish folk, not anyone else. Read the text, it's right there. Now, are there rules that carry over and have meaning in other contexts? Sure, but NOT ALL of them do. YOU acknowledge this. I acknowledge this. We ALL acknowledge this.

    What you are adding on is the insistence that this verse (and your extrapolated meaning of it) is a law that has universal application. You do so without God having said so and with no good, rational, biblical reason to do so, not that I've seen thus far.

    Thus, you're not letting the text say what it says ("Ancient Israel, living next to pagan Canaanites, I don't want your men lying with men like they do in Canaan. If you do, kill them..."), you are saying, "Not ALL the ancient rules in the OT are applicable today, but 'men should not lie with men," IS applicable..."

    That is going beyond the text. Can you see that?

    conversely, I ADD ON NOTHING to what the Bible says. It clearly has a rule in the OT to ancient Israel that men should not lie with men, like they do in Canaan, and if they do, kill them. I acknowledge that was some ancient rule for Israel. I further acknowledge that ancient Israeli rules are not universal in nature. I further acknowledge that some rules in ancient Israel have modern applications, as well. That is adding nothing. I do NOT presume to say because ancient Israel had this rule about how to cut your hair or that rule about women's menstruation or this OTHER rule about men not laying with men should be killed, that all these rules apply today. Why would I? That would be ADDING TO the text what is not there.

    Does that make sense?

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  11. Dan T.,

    To your numbered points:

    1) We are not currently living in the 1st century, yes.

    2) Except where it is explicitly written in scripture. You have stipulated that where it is explicit the Bible is not a puzzle and we can know God's will. However, to confirm you as much as possible, no one has a universal understanding of the perfect and totally exhaustive knowledge of God's will on all topics, yes.

    3)You words copied directly - "The Bible (which I have to reason my way through), my reason, real world evidence, God's Spirit, God's Word writ upon my heart... these ALL can contribute to my better understanding God's will, but they ALL depend on our own good reasoning, and that includes OUR UNDERSTANDING of the Bible." You can write that it is not your opinion, but in your own words you list the Bible, your reason, real world evidence, God's Spirit, God's Word writ upon my heart. You do include your opinion and real world evidence (same as observable moral values and contemporary culture).

    4)"The difference seems to me to be that the emphasis is NOT on "This is what I see happening in the culture around me," but rather, "Whatsoever things are right, pure, good, just, lovely..." and the notion that we can use our God-given reason to sort those things out. Agreed?" My point is why in the world are you including the culture around you at all? If you have the Bible, God's Spirit, God's law written on your heart, what in heaven's name would you want to look around you and consider what others are doing to formulate a biblically sound position? Moreover, how can you not recognize that including the culture around you in the list is to add to the list? You are by your own written words adding the culture around you into forming a biblical position and yet claiming you are adding nothing. I'm just not seeing how this is not systemically contradictory.

    5) I have an issue with all your "examples" that i'll try to get to later, i'm very short on time. I'm not ignoring and I will address this, but there is too much to write in the time available and I can finish, I believe on the rest.

    6) I've stated repeatedly you may hold positions and call them Biblically blessed of God and preach on the street corners for everyone to follow you. What I am submitting here is that do make extensions from what is explicitly stated Biblical positions by including contemporary culture is to tread on dangerous ground for all the reasons already listed.

    Continued...

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  12. Dan T., Continued

    A) Yes, all men are sinners and are not just capable of mistakes but guaranteed to make them.

    B) Taking positions on moral issues and declaring biblical soundness are two different things. The topic at hand is making biblical declarations to endorse and celebrate where the Bible is admittedly silent. So my answer would be no if it is asked in relation to the intent of the topic on hand.

    C) I'll address with other examples as per my previous.

    As for your last comment in the string I will answer by repeating what I specifically asked you to make a special note of: I am not condemning anything - we haven't gotten as far as that yet. I am focusing in on whether or not to make extensions from what is explicit in scripture. Others may have moved ahead a step or two and made such condemnations with argumentation to the end. I have not. Please make special note again, I am not moving on to, nor does this post nor my generic line of thinking deal with condemnation of behavior. I hope that is clear and will not have to be addressed again.

    It will take a few hours to get back to write my bit on your examples. I will address it at that time to the best of my ability.

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  13. Dan T.,

    It occurred to me that I won't have a chance to get back on until tomorrow morning so let me address in brief to your examples and then follow up tomorrow if needs be.

    I hesitate to pursue specific examples because of the rabbit trails that can get one sidetracked from the main point. I deliberately used a general topic X and corollary X' to ward off these rabbit trails. Therefore I would like to stick to general discussions and not particular examples. If you really cannot be at ease talking in these general terms, then please present examples that directly follow the presentation above. It would go something like this:

    "Jeremy, please address this particular example. The Bible explicitly states that cupcakes are red (here is the scripture verse). A corollary to that position where the Bible is silent is that rocking chairs are comfortable. As real world evidence I experience the following observable moral values. Therefore it is biblically sound to say that rocking chairs are comfortable. Do you disagree with this, and where is the dangerous ground?"

    I'm not forcing you which topics to bring up, just asking that you be consistent with the formulation that is considered in this post. So if the Bible is not silent on the corollary it does not match my original framing. If the original position X is not clearly and explicitly stated in scripture (written text, not a general theme) then it does not match my original framing.

    I hope you understand I cannot deal with an example that is framed differently than it was dealt with in my post because that is the position i'm presenting.

    Now, A question that may help clear this up right away.

    1) Suppose I grant that you do not add anything and what I proposed in my original post as a framework is in no way associated with your view.

    2) Given that, and since you are stating that you do not look to contemporary culture for assessing the biblical soundness of a moral position.

    3) Do you agree with my post content as argued? If not, where would you disagree?

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  14. Jeremy...

    in your own words you list the Bible, your reason, real world evidence, God's Spirit, God's Word writ upon my heart...

    In my own words, these all are part of what contribute to my understanding of God's Will. Do you disagree with any of that?

    Continuing then...

    You do include your opinion and real world evidence (same as observable moral values and contemporary culture).

    First off, real world evidence does NOT, in my mind, in any way equate to "contemporary culture."

    Secondly, when I hear you say, "you LOOK TO contemporary culture," it sounds like to me that you're suggesting that I LOOK TO CONTEMPORARY CULTURE to glean insight into God's Will. That SOUNDS like you're suggesting "Dan is looking to pop culture to see what everyone is saying about what is right and wrong..." which would be a ridiculous and utterly false statement.

    IF you are merely trying to say that I consider real world evidence (ie, does the evidence support the notion that the world is thousands of years old or billions of years old? does the evidence support that two gay Christians who are living a married, loving, respectful life are somehow doing something that is not consistent with biblical truths?) for what it's worth, then I'd ask that you refer to it that way - "Dan (and anyone else reasonable) considers real world evidence for matters where logically reasonable."

    By "real world evidence," I mean just that. IF there is factual evidence that the earth is round, then it would be ridiculous to hold to a flat earth perspective merely because YOU (generic "you") think the Bible teaches a flat earth. IF there is real, factual, observable evidence that the ancient Hebrew word for "abominable" meant merely "culturally taboo," then it would be ridiculous to make the claim that eating shrimp is "abominable in the sense that it is detested by God as an evil thing to do..."

    Real world evidence to understanding real world, observable phenomena is one thing. Looking to contemporary culture for cues to morality seems to me to be a totally different thing. I (and hopefully, we all) do the former but eschew the latter.

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  15. Jeremy...

    My point is why in the world are you including the culture around you at all?

    Well, I have not SAID that nor suggested that, so I'm not advocating that. I DO think it reasonable to consider real world evidence, though. If it were proven (and it is) that the world is billions of years old, then it is not rational to ignore real world, observable evidence to cling to a personal interpretation.

    I'm NOT taking cues from the culture around me for lessons in morality. I AM looking at real evidence in the real world, where it exists. Why look to real evidence? Because you come across as irrational if you ignore reality.

    Doesn't that make sense?

    Jeremy...

    If you have the Bible, God's Spirit, God's law written on your heart, what in heaven's name would you want to look around you and consider what others are doing to formulate a biblically sound position?

    As noted repeatedly, I have not said that, am not suggesting it and don't do it. You are misunderstanding my position and stating it in an incorrect way.

    NOT my position, Jeremy.

    And I will reiterate, my goal is not "a biblically sound position," but a GODLY position. In the words of Paul...

    Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    THAT is my goal, NOT aligning my life to MY INTERPRETATION of the Bible, NOR conforming to the world, but to be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of my mind so that we can test and approve what God's will is.

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  16. Jeremy...

    Moreover, how can you not recognize that including the culture around you in the list is to add to the list? You are by your own written words adding the culture around you into forming a biblical position and yet claiming you are adding nothing.

    Jeremy, I hope by now you can see that I DID NOT, by MY OWN WRITTEN WORDS "add culture around me" into forming a biblical position. It has not happened, I have not said it. I have not suggested it. I do not think it.

    Can I safely assume that you get that this is NOT NOT NOT my position now?

    I hope so.

    Jeremy...

    B) Taking positions on moral issues and declaring biblical soundness are two different things. The topic at hand is making biblical declarations to endorse and celebrate where the Bible is admittedly silent. So my answer would be no if it is asked in relation to the intent of the topic on hand.

    Maybe this is going to get to some of our misunderstanding. WHAT "biblical declarations" do you think I have made on topics where the Bible is silent?

    I think I have been extremely clear that the Bible is silent on marriage between gay folk.

    I think I have been ALSO clear that, despite the silence of the Bible on the topic, two gay folk committing together in love, respect and Godly community to a wedded life, that this seems like an obvious moral good to me. I have not staked out a position saying THE BIBLE says this is good. That has not happened. Rather, I have been abundantly clear that this is my opinion, and that this sort of loving healthy commitment IS something to be celebrated and honored.

    It would be MY HUNCH, given what the Bible has to say about love, grace, purity, faithfulness, kindness, community, etc, that this sort of marriage relationship would be a pleasing thing to God, whether gay or straight.

    These are all my OPINIONS. I have not stated that the Bible says them, nor have I presumed to say, "THIS IS WHAT GOD THINKS..." Just my opinion on a moral topic.

    What "biblical declarations" do you think I've made?

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  17. Jeremy,

    Great post. Where I think the problems lie is in comments like these from Dan.

    "...I'll just say again that I agree with Jim: You all are losing the argument in the minds of most Americans and probably most Christians."

    "With increasing numbers of people leaning in favor of marriage equity for all AND with the trend of young folk being largely in favor of this, it is I think a reasonable conclusion to state that the fact is, you are losing this argument with the US population at large. It is likely that in our lifetime (unless you die from a stroke brought on by sheer moral outrage), marriage equity will be the norm in this country. You're losing the argument."

    As if the court of public opinion matters one bit when assessing Biblical support for ones position. To be clear Dan may find these sorts of arguments compelling (I doubt he's use them if he didn't) but IMO they totally miss the point.

    As Paul said "for we walk by faith, not by sight.". It seems as though appealing to polls and trends is walking by sight, not faith.

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  18. Craig, don't be irrational or irresponsible with your comments.

    My pointing out that you all are losing this argument is NOT making the suggestion that an appeal to numbers is a compelling argument. I am not doing that. If you failed to comprehend, then I apologize for not being clear enough and now, I am correcting that false impression.

    My point, which I guess you are missing, is that you all are doing a poor job of presenting a compelling case. Your side seems to be illogical and based on religious biases/prejudices, not appealing to logic or morality.

    My point is THIS is how you are coming across and for that reason, you are losing this debate. I would think that, for your OWN interests, you might want to pay attention to HOW you discuss things as much as WHAT your opinions are on matters.

    Do you understand my point now, Craig?

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    1. Now I understand. What you don't understand is the the point is not to "win" arguments. It's about trying to align ones self with God's standards. If I am aligned with God's standards, it makes no difference what others believe. As you have pointed out ad nauseum "logic and morality" are human constructs and therefore fallible. Why would one want to appeal to fallible human constructs? Seems silly to me.

      To put it another way IF (note the term if) I (and by extension those who disagree with you) are correct in how we have interpreted God's standards, then what difference does it make if we "lose the argument"?

      This is not meant to sound arrogant at all, just to point out that God, not "logic" not "morality", not an "increasing number of people leaning toward marriage equity", is the arbiter.

      I think your words speak for themselves.

      Delete
  19. It's like when some of your comrades appeal to tradition (the majority of Christians throughout history have agreed with ME on this point) as if THAT were a valid or compelling argument. An appeal to numbers or tradition when it comes to seeking God's will are not compelling arguments.

    But pointing out you're losing the numbers/losing the argument - and that it is perhaps due to HOW you go about defending your position - that is an insight worth considering, IF you consider your position worth defending.

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  20. Do I agree with your post, Jeremy? Where you say...

    Based on the observations I have made in the culture surrounding me in my every day life I conclude that topic X' is acceptable Biblically and further determine that I should accept and celebrate topic X' and treat it as equitable with topic X."

    Is this a logical, proper and reasonable way for sincere Christians to think in areas where the Bible does not explicitly state anything regarding a specific topic?


    Yes, I agree with this point. It is poor exegesis to say "Behavior X is not covered in the Bible, but people around me think it is good, so I think it must be good according to the Bible..." That would be a ridiculous point to make. I certainly would never make that point.

    So it's not that I'm disagreeing with the point, it was just to say that IF you were referencing OUR discussion and that was supposed to represent my position, then it doesn't.

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  21. Dan T.,

    "In my own words, these all are part of what contribute to my understanding of God's Will. Do you disagree with any of that?" Only where "real world evidence," "observable moral values," "contemporary culture" is concerned. And this was the point of the bottom half of the post. When it comes to God's will, I just think it is dangerous to include those things into ones that contribute, in any way, to the determination of God's will. And here is the question again that i've asked previously amended to use your words. If you have what is explicitly written in the Bible, the Holy Spirit, God's law writ on your heart: if you have all that, why in heaven's name would you want to include what you experience around you (real world evidence, observable moral values) as a contributing factor in determining God's will. You see no danger there? Don't you see the scenario as a possibility that you read something and believe it to be God's will based on Scripture, the Holy Spirit confirms that understanding, your conscience agrees because God's law that is written on your heart makes you uncomfortable at the thought of some other understanding, BUT what you experience in the real world tells you that kind of thinking is not right so now you begin to doubt if you have interpreted the Bible correctly, if you have heard the Holy Spirit correctly, if the law written on your heart has your conscience operating correctly and so you turn from your previously confident position formed by the Word, the Spirit and your conscience because of your consideration of what you experience around you? Can you not acknowledge that is a possibility with what you have clearly stated is your position? Can you see how that is dangerous?

    You wrote: "First off, real world evidence does NOT, in my mind, in any way equate to "contemporary culture." And I would just ask again, where if not from the world around you at the time in which you live do you arrive at this "real world evidence?" Contemporary culture is simply the world around you, what you are experiencing around you, at the time in which you live. How can it therefore in no way equate to real world evidence?

    You wrote: "Maybe this is going to get to some of our misunderstanding. WHAT "biblical declarations" do you think I have made on topics where the Bible is silent?"

    Here is a quote from the blog comment string previously referenced: “Because I believe that logically and biblically, marriage is a good thing, that licentiousness and "corking up" your sexuality is a bad thing and, given what the Bible DOES say, I find the position logically and biblically sound that God would approve two people committing in love and fidelity. I can't prove it, the Bible doesn't say it, but it seems rationally and biblically sound to me.” That is where I get that you make biblical declarations - you wrote that it is "logically and biblically sound that God would approve two people committing in love and fidelity." Biblically sound that (any) two people meeting the requirements of love and fidelity is approved by God. Whether you put the tag of "opinion" or "hunch" after that, you are a professed Christian stating that you believe it is biblically sound that any two people meeting the requirement of love and fidelity getting married is biblically sound and approved by God. Those are your words exactly as I've quoted them. You may feel free to retract them if you wish, but you cannot say you never wrote it. Those are the biblical declarations you have made.

    Continued...

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    1. "..."corking up" your sexuality is a bad thing"

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Paul suggested exactly the opposite. I seem to remember that Paul thought the best way was to "cork up" your sexuality and to devote your life to serving God.

      It also seems that Paul's words recorded in the Bible, might be considered Biblical.

      Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

      Delete
  22. Dan T.,

    Your wrote: "Yes, I agree with this point. It is poor exegesis to say "Behavior X is not covered in the Bible, but people around me think it is good, so I think it must be good according to the Bible..." That would be a ridiculous point to make. I certainly would never make that point."

    Thank you.

    I would like to say that I don't see a big difference between my positioned line of thinking and what you stated above. As you wrote, "In my own words, these all are part of what contribute to my understanding of God's will." Your position is not look to contemporary culture, it is "include as a contributing factor to my understanding of God's will." Isn't it enough to rely on what is clearly written in the Bible, the Holy Spirit, and your conscience based on the law of God that is written on your heart? Why is that not enough?

    By the way, there are many position I hold based on what I believe solely on what I believe the Bible clearly states, is confirmed in my spirit by the Holy Spirit and where my conscience is clear and where I have been told I am irrational in believing it. That doesn't concern me, being labeled irrational. It is enough for me to know and be confident that the Bible, the Holy Spirit and my conscience agree.

    And let me also add that in my youth my experiences in the world around me held much sway in deciding God's will for my life. It was the Holy Spirit and a conscience that was convicted that I was trivializing the Lord I loved and His Word that brought me out of that way of thinking. If that is irrational (which it is clearly labeled by some) i'm glad to embrace that label.

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  23. Dan T.,

    Sorry, I missed this one. You wrote: "my goal is not "a biblically sound position," but a GODLY position. In the words of Paul...

    Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

    THAT is my goal, NOT aligning my life to MY INTERPRETATION of the Bible, NOR conforming to the world, but to be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of my mind so that we can test and approve what God's will is."

    We're not, in this post, discussing aligning your life to an interpretation, Dan. We're talking about recognizing what is explicit as legitimate and not making extensions on God's will by including in the determination of such "real world evidence" or "observable moral values." Also, since you provided the scriptural quote - you are not to conform to the pattern of the world, but you can include what you experience from those who are conformed to the pattern of the world as a factor in determining God's will?

    This is not intended to beat you up, but even though it's not your stated position what you are writing sounds like this:

    "My desire is to be Godly, and so I don't count on my or anyone else's interpretation of the Bible. To be Godly, I look at God's Word for reference, listen to the Holy Spirit, listen to my conscience, and make sure what i've come up with doesn't seem irrational by comparing that arrived at position with the world in which I live. If what I believe comes off as irrational I probably need to reconsider."

    That is just provided for what it's worth. I know you have not written those exact words in any of your writings, but it sounds like that is how you is sounds to me, and it may be I am all alone in that assessment. As we have agreed previously the matter is ultimately between you and God so I do not present that to force you to change, just to tell you how it sounds to me for you to take or leave.

    I think that addresses everything, let me know if I missed something. These comment continuations are a struggle because it is so hard to address so much and get to it all.

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  24. Craig,

    Thanks for stopping by and for commenting, I appreciate it.

    I also appreciate very much your insistence on the ultimate point not being to win an argument. If that ever does become the objective, then something far greater is lost.

    Blessings.

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  25. Jeremy...

    Only where "real world evidence," "observable moral values," "contemporary culture" is concerned. And this was the point of the bottom half of the post. When it comes to God's will, I just think it is dangerous to include those things into ones that contribute, in any way, to the determination of God's will.

    I can't believe that you seriously think this, Jeremy. Let me provide some examples.

    IF someone says he is a good, respectful, loving Christian family man, loves his wife and children and he is ready to be ordained as a deacon or church elder. That testimony fits what the Bible says and the Bible endorses that sort of behavior. HOWEVER, in the real world, this guy beats his wife and is a notorious gambler and womanizer.

    Will you still ordain him or will you consider real world evidence?

    Real world evidence is not a bad thing, my brother. I'm sure you can agree with this, right?

    Also, you keep citing "contemporary culture" in reference to my opinions and I keep pointing out that THOSE ARE NOT MY WORDS. Please quit attributing to me something I have not said.

    Thanks.

    Jeremy...

    And here is the question again that i've asked previously amended to use your words. If you have what is explicitly written in the Bible, the Holy Spirit, God's law writ on your heart: if you have all that, why in heaven's name would you want to include what you experience around you (real world evidence, observable moral values) as a contributing factor in determining God's will.

    Jeremy, this is a strange, strange question that I can't really believe you mean. We LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD. Real world evidence in making our decisions is a good thing to have. Being able to observe moral values is a good thing, taught by Jesus, James and John, amongst others ("if someone says they love their brother but does nothing to help, how is the love of God in them?" - going from memory, but you get the point).

    What problem do you have with real world evidence? I find it hard to believe that you really don't think real world evidence or observable moral behavior matter.

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  26. Jeremy...

    You see no danger there? Don't you see the scenario as a possibility that you read something and believe it to be God's will based on Scripture, the Holy Spirit confirms that understanding, your conscience agrees because God's law that is written on your heart makes you uncomfortable at the thought of some other understanding, BUT what you experience in the real world tells you that kind of thinking is not right...

    I am of the mind that real world evidence and observable moral behavior will comport with Scripture.

    Sure, we can find a truth-teaching in the Bible (for instance, "love your enemies," or "don't store up treasures on earth") and then look at the world around us and think things like, "But if I don't kill my enemy, he might kill me..." or "But if I don't store up treasures on earth, then I might be poor..." and have the cares of the world crowd out the moral teaching, but that is not what I'm talking about.

    I'm talking about, IF there is evidence, for instance, in someone's life that they are confessing Jesus, loving, caring, kind, gracious, grace-full, tending to the needs of the least of these and all the other measures that the Bible TEACHES that we should be able to observe in the real world, then that is REAL WORLD evidence of their Christianity.

    I think you might have to provide some specific examples of what in the world you're concerned about as being a potential "real world evidence" problem.

    Jeremy...

    Can you not acknowledge that is a possibility with what you have clearly stated is your position? Can you see how that is dangerous?

    There is always the chance that we'll let real world CONCERNS trip us up in following God's will, but that doesn't mean we just ignore real world concerns, does it? I mean, they're there, we can acknowledge reality.

    I really think you need to provide some specifics to make any sense, because I just don't think I see anything much to be concerned with so far.

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  27. eremy...

    You wrote: "First off, real world evidence does NOT, in my mind, in any way equate to "contemporary culture." And I would just ask again, where if not from the world around you at the time in which you live do you arrive at this "real world evidence?" Contemporary culture is simply the world around you, what you are experiencing around you, at the time in which you live. How can it therefore in no way equate to real world evidence?

    "Contemporary culture" refers to a CULTURE. Within any culture, there are many sub-cultures. I believe that most times when people refer to "contemporary culture," they are referring to the dominant culture, not all the specific sub-cultures.

    I do not live in the realm of the dominant contemporary culture. The dominant contemporary culture is not the source of my values, not in the least. It is sort of the opposite of that, actually. If something is popular in the dominant contemporary culture, then that would be a red flag to me.

    I think you and I are using "contemporary culture" to mean two different things. When I talk about real world evidence, I mean just that: Evidence as found in the real world. These are facts and observable phenomena.

    "Culture" does not deal with facts, but with trends, feelings, impressions, ideas...

    From the dictionary of contemporary English,

    Culture: the beliefs, way of life, art, and customs that are shared and accepted by people in a particular society

    I do not share the values, etc of the dominant culture, nor do I look to them. In standard English usage of the words, "real world evidence" and "contemporary culture" are two distinct things that you seem to be conflating.

    I do NOT look to the dominant contemporary culture to inform my values. It just does not happen and that is not what I mean.

    If you want to use the term "contemporary culture" to mean something different than the standard English understanding, I'd suggest you define it, so people will know what you're speaking of.

    Further, if you are actually speaking of contemporary culture as defined, then you would need to acknowledge that there is not ONE SINGLE contemporary culture, but multiple cultures and subcultures. I most identify with the Anabaptist subculture, but I don't think that would identify me as a member of "contemporary culture," except, inasmuch as anabaptists exist as part of contemporary culture.

    Fair enough?

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  28. Jeremy...

    Here is a quote from the blog comment string previously referenced: “Because I believe that logically and biblically, marriage is a good thing, that licentiousness and "corking up" your sexuality is a bad thing and, given what the Bible DOES say, I find the position logically and biblically sound that God would approve two people committing in love and fidelity. I can't prove it, the Bible doesn't say it, but it seems rationally and biblically sound to me.” That is where I get that you make biblical declarations

    Then I'm sorry you misunderstood and that I was not clear enough. When I said, "I FIND the position logically and biblically sound..." I meant to be clear that this was MY OPINION, not the Bible's opinion or God's opinion. This seems a reasonable conclusion TO ME.

    Just as other people might read the Bible text that says "don't take oaths" and conclude that it is a reasonable and biblically conclusion that we ought not pledge allegiance or take oaths when serving on juries. The text does not specifically refer to modern pledges and oaths, but it seems a reasonable and biblical conclusion to SOME people.

    You do this, too, I'm sure. Make conclusions that you find to be biblically and logically sound even though it does not specifically say that in the text.

    Jeremy...

    Whether you put the tag of "opinion" or "hunch" after that, you are a professed Christian stating that you believe it is biblically sound that any two people meeting the requirement of love and fidelity getting married is biblically sound and approved by God. Those are your words exactly as I've quoted them. You may feel free to retract them if you wish, but you cannot say you never wrote it. Those are the biblical declarations you have made.

    Again, I think we might have a misunderstanding based on semantics. To me, when I offer an opinion about a behavior and that opinion is clearly mine, I am not making a "biblical declaration," just offering an opinion on a behavior and whether it seems TO ME to be sound biblical behavior.

    Declaration defined: The act of declaring; announcement;

    I have declared MY OPINION about a behavior as it relates to the Bible. I believe we are okay to do this. Do you think we ought to offer no opinions about OUR ideas about what the Bible has to say on topics it does not specifically address? If so, I would disagree.

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  29. Jeremy...

    By the way, there are many position I hold based on what I believe solely on what I believe the Bible clearly states, is confirmed in my spirit by the Holy Spirit and where my conscience is clear and where I have been told I am irrational in believing it. That doesn't concern me, being labeled irrational. It is enough for me to know and be confident that the Bible, the Holy Spirit and my conscience agree.

    The problem with this, Jeremy, in a flawed and imperfect people, is that we are entirely capable of being wrong. "I FEEL like the Spirit is confirming me" is subjective and prone to abuse. After all, if "feeling like" the Bible and Holy Spirit affirm your position, then you can blast anyone out of the water because they disagree with you. In short, operating on that subjective an approach sort of conflates your opinions with God's.

    Do you see the danger in that?

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  30. Dan T.,

    I cannot possible respond to the volume you've presented here, so i'll just make two general comments and not respond point-by-point.

    Regarding culture. Your definition does not mention dominant at all and I have not said dominant culture, only contemporary culture. Whether it is sub-culture, dominant culture, or any other culture the point is the rest of the definition - to wit, and to quote, "the beliefs, way of life, art, and customs that are shared and accepted by people in a particular society". You keep saying real world evidence, observable moral values, and now observable phenomena. At the same time you seem unwilling to recognize that this evidence and the things you observe take place in this particular society and are held, and are shared and accepted (to varying degrees) by the people in that particular society. Is the only evidence of which you speak impersonal, or does it involve people? Is the only observable phenomena of which you speak completely unrelated to the art, belief, way of life, or customs of the people in the particular society in which you currently live? In the very example you presented concerning the prospective candidate for leadership your "evidence" is behavior of a person in this particular society, is it not? Have you not looked to culture for this evidence, then?

    With regard to this example, you are still not being true to the post. The uncovering of the life the man was living in secret had nothing to do with the explicit requirements for elder or deacon. These requirements are not a corollary issue on which the Bible is silent. This example is one where the Bible is explicitly clear, the church leadership acted in accordance with what was explicit, never using any real world evidence to come to the determination that those were the requirements. It became known later that the man, by his now exposed behavior, DID NOT MEET THE EXPLICIT REQUIREMENTS OF SCRIPTURE that were arrived at without consulting real world evidence and thus he was disqualified. The example is not good for what we are discussing.

    This is another apparent difference between us, or perhaps we are talking across topics. I am talking about consulting the world around (call it observable phenomena, real world evidence, observable moral values, etc.) to determine what is biblical. Once we come up with what is biblical, of course we live in this world and interact with it so we will find that some things people do, say and think will agree (Christian or not) and some things will disagree (Christian or not). I'm just suggesting that it is dangerous to consider things outside the Bible the leading of the Holy Spirit and our conscience in determining what is biblical in the first place.

    Continued...

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  31. Dan T.,

    Continued...

    You wrote: "The problem with this, Jeremy, in a flawed and imperfect people, is that we are entirely capable of being wrong. "I FEEL like the Spirit is confirming me" is subjective and prone to abuse. After all, if "feeling like" the Bible and Holy Spirit affirm your position, then you can blast anyone out of the water because they disagree with you. In short, operating on that subjective an approach sort of conflates your opinions with God's.

    Do you see the danger in that?"

    There is a danger in acting based on feeling alone. That's why what I wrote was that I base my position soles on three things, not just one. What the Bible clearly states, the Holy Spirit and my conscience (God's law written on the heart of man). My list is therefore three items God's Word, God the Holy Spirit, God's law. Not subjective and not my opinion therefore any opinion of mine cannot be conflated with God's (so long as I stick with these three and don't bring my opinion into it).

    Here is your list quoted from before: "The Bible (which I have to reason my way through), my reason, real world evidence, God's Spirit, God's Word writ upon my heart... these ALL can contribute to my better understanding God's will, but they ALL depend on our own good reasoning, and that includes OUR UNDERSTANDING of the Bible." You have brought in real world evidence and make the caveat of a capitalized our understanding which I can only surmise is an opinion of what the Bible says. Because these two items have been added (and to dispel any literary confusing, when I write added I simply mean included as part of, or included in addition to) you are in the position, it seems clear, to be in danger of conflating your opinion or someone else's (based on the evidence of behavior of others in the particular society in which you live unless your evidence is strictly impersonal) with God's.

    Therefore, once again, with regard to determining God's will (not observing whether what is actually done agrees or disagrees with what has already been determined) I do not believe relying on God's Word, the Holy Spirit and the conscience to be deficient or dangerous.

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  32. Jeremy...

    I am talking about consulting the world around (call it observable phenomena, real world evidence, observable moral values, etc.) to determine what is biblical.

    And I have not once suggested nor do I believe that it is reasonable to consult the world around us to determine what is "biblical." This has nothing to do with anything I've said.

    Does that clear that up, then?

    What is in the Bible is in the Bible. Considering real-world evidence does not change what is in the Bible.

    ON THE OTHER HAND, real world evidence CAN help us have a fuller understanding of the Bible.

    If we are speaking of an ancient Hebrew term (X) and by consulting real-world ancient writings from other sources and Hebrew history, we learn that X (which has been translated "Z" in our bibles) is more accurately translated "A," then real world evidence is a help to better understanding the Bible.

    IF we see a passage that commands us to do Q, but by consulting other ancient texts and scholars, we learn that the passage in question was likely a poem or a bit of hyperbole or told in a mythic/allegorical manner, then THAT real-world evidence helps us better understand the Bible. Surely you would agree to this, at least in theory?

    Are you really opposed to real world evidence to help us better understand the Bible? (NOT to "determine what is biblical," but to better understand it, mind you.)


    Jeremy...

    There is a danger in acting based on feeling alone. That's why what I wrote was that I base my position soles on three things, not just one. What the Bible clearly states, the Holy Spirit and my conscience (God's law written on the heart of man). My list is therefore three items God's Word, God the Holy Spirit, God's law. Not subjective and not my opinion

    I'd have to disagree at least a bit, my brother. When you say you base your position on "what the Bible clearly states," what is IMPLICIT in that statement, is what it clearly states TO YOUR UNDERSTANDING. The Bible, after all, clearly states that behavior X was commanded by God and so if someone BELIEVES that God might command us to do behavior X, they COULD be WAY off, if behavior X is, for instance, killing the children of your enemies.

    When we read the Bible or anything, there is the TEXT and then there is OUR UNDERSTANDING of the text. The text may say, "Go, kill these children..." but we use our UNDERSTANDING to sort out, "Is this a command for ME, too? OR is it an allegory? an epic story? a poem? an old rule for a specific time/place/people??"

    We - none of us - takes the Bible simply based on what it clearly states. We INTERPRET. Otherwise, Jeremy, I guarantee you would have plucked out your eye and hacked off your hand by now, right?

    Further, YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the Spirit's leadership is YOUR UNDERSTANDING and subjective, NOT objective.

    After all, on Topic A, YOU BELIEVE FULLY that Topic A is wrong and you "feel" led by the Spirit to that conclusion, while another Christian FULLY BELIEVES that Topic A is right and they "feel" led by the Spirit to that conclusion.

    OUR understanding of a text, OUR understanding of the Spirit's leadership, OUR understanding of God's Law, these are ALL OUR subjective opinions, not an authoritative, objective answer.

    Right?

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  33. OR, do you think that since I think the text is clear and feel led by the Spirit to my position and that I'm clear on the OT Law, that my position can't be wrong?

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  34. Dan T.,

    "And I have not once suggested nor do I believe that it is reasonable to consult the world around us to determine what is "biblical." This has nothing to do with anything I've said.

    Does that clear that up, then?"

    No. Because you then immediately write:

    "What is in the Bible is in the Bible. Considering real-world evidence does not change what is in the Bible.

    ON THE OTHER HAND, real world evidence CAN help us have a fuller understanding of the Bible."

    Why do you need an "on the other hand"? How is it possible for what is clear and explicit in scripture (and we are both granting in this discussion that there things clear and explicit in scripture) to be explained fuller by looking outside the bible? How is the Bible, the Holy Spirit and your conscience deficient such that you need to look to real world experience for a fuller understanding?

    You say the Bible is not a puzzle and that its teachings are clear, but from what you have said you cannot trust the accuracy of the words themselves (since ancient scholars disagree in matters of translation), what the bible clearly states (since we all interpret every word we read), what we have read (every thought we have concerning what we read is a subjective opinion and our hunch), what we feel from the Holy Spirit (we are to test the spirits against the Word but since we cannot trust the word we cannot trust the Spirit), or our conscience (because we check out conscience against the Word and the Spirit and we can't trust either of those as above and the law of God on our heart is a subjective feeling of good or bad and therefore only our opinion).

    We are not going to agree on anything regarding the faith if something is not foundation. Everything relative to Christianity is not opinion and speculation. By what you have written your foundation is built in mid-air. You can write that it is not your position and that you never wrote those words but at this point I am not sure I'll ever understand what you mean by what you write. You say there are clear teachings, and you've listed a few on a number of occasions. But you also say that "We - none of us - takes the Bible simply based on what it clearly states. We INTERPRET." So then by your own admission those teaching you claim to be clear are actually only your interpretation, your opinion, your hunch. So then you know that they are clear only to best of your ability to construct hunches. My biggest problem with all of this is that based on thinking like that you are admittedly going through your whole life not knowing if your opinion, your hunch, is right or wrong - whether you are glorifying God or profaning Him. I don't see how God would reveal Himself to man in the Word, tell us to glorify Him in all we do and and to teach and preach and then leave us to formulate opinions and hunches and wait until the end of our days and we are facing Him to find out if our opinions and hunches were glorifying or profaning.

    I know, you never said any of that, it's not your position and you don't agree. I don't think there is any further we can go. You stated agreement with the content of my original post, so we disagree on all the rest. I hope that you will at least consider that.

    It seems all we have been able to determine in common is that we both feel it is foolish to look outside the Bible to make a determination of what is Biblical and God's will for those things explicitly stated. I am thankful for that agreement.

    Our disagreement is on making extensions off that which is explicit, and whether it is a good idea to promote those extensions as being biblically sound, even if it is amended by "I find," or "I think," or "it is my opinion," or "my hunch is." This has been a discussion over a general position, perhaps I will next post a specific example and see where that leads.

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  35. Jeremy...

    How is it possible for what is clear and explicit in scripture (and we are both granting in this discussion that there things clear and explicit in scripture) to be explained fuller by looking outside the bible?

    Because I don't speak ancient Hebrew or Greek.
    Because I don't have a total understanding of the context or the text.
    Because ancient people's did not speak in modern manners or use modern storytelling devices.

    How is the Bible, the Holy Spirit and your conscience deficient such that you need to look to real world experience for a fuller understanding?

    The Bible, the Spirit and my conscience are fine, as far as they go. But, MY UNDERSTANDING of them is limited by my own human limitations. It is a HIGH RESPECT for God's Word and Way that demands that we not merely take a simplistic reading approach to an ancient text.

    I'd ask you again: DO you truly think that striving to understand the text (written in an extremely different culture in an extremely different language thousands of years ago) and context by external evidence is a bad idea? If that is your reasoning, then why not just read the original Hebrew/Greek and forego the modern external worldly evidence of "translations?"

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  36. Jeremy...

    but from what you have said you cannot trust the accuracy of the words themselves...

    I think you are totally not understanding my point. It is NOT that we can't "trust" the words themselves or the Holy Spirit, it is OUR UNDERSTANDING that we can't claim to be imperfect or above failure. It is HIGH respect for the text and LOW regard for our (YOUR, MY) modern understanding of God that demands a bit of humility when it comes to reading the Holy Book.

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  37. Jeremy...

    at this point I am not sure I'll ever understand what you mean by what you write.

    If you can't wholly and perfectly understand my own poor words, written by a fellow Christian in the same day and age and language, how do you think you can perfectly understand God's Holy Word?

    "NOW, we see as through a glass, darkly..." Paul promises us, and it's true.

    I guess I'd come back to an earlier question: IF you freely admit to not having perfect understanding on God's Will, how do you know WHICH of your points are perfect and on what basis would you make such an astounding claim?

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  38. Jeremy...

    I don't think there is any further we can go.

    I know I (we) have written a lot and it's hard to respond to everything, given limited time, but one thing you could do is answer a few questions that remain unanswered. For instance...

    do you think that since I think the text is clear and feel led by the Spirit to my position and that I'm clear on the OT Law, that my position can't be wrong?

    and...

    OUR understanding of a text, OUR understanding of the Spirit's leadership, OUR understanding of God's Law, these are ALL OUR subjective opinions, not an authoritative, objective answer. In what possible way is OUR UNDERSTANDING of a point that is not demonstrable in any objective way NOT subjective?

    And also the question about using obvious "modern" "external to the Bible" resources such as translations and scholarly research into context, how is that NOT helpful to better understanding the Bible?

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  39. One other question I'd ask, Jeremy, would be the same one that you've asked, but in reverse...

    What if you are wrong? Since you don't know because the Bible does not explicitly cover topic X, if one looks to one's own religious culture and condemns topic X and calls it "against God's will," and condemns those who support it and it turns out you are mistaken, what is been done is a profaning of that which is sacred, is that not correct?

    IF you condemned topic X and those who support it, you'd be calling profane that which is Godly, holy, good and sacred, right?

    If you could only answer one or two questions, I'd hope you'd answer this one and this one:

    do you think that since I think the text is clear and feel led by the Spirit to my position and that I'm clear on the OT Law, that my position can't be wrong?

    Thanks.

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  40. My own answer to your Pascals wager question is...

    IF I am mistaken and tell people seeking to do God's will that it is my opinion that Behavior X is a good thing (seeing as how it is based on love, respect, desire to follow God, commitment, etc), then I will have told them that this behavior is Okay in my opinion and they may agree, in their opinion. IF we are mistaken on a behavior, then what happens is, we are mistaken on a behavior. IF somehow striving to be loving, committed, faithful, kind, etc in the context of Behavior X, if that is sinful, then they will have sinned in ignorance and I would have supported it.

    That would be a shame, as sin has negative consequences to those who participate.

    But the thing is, we WILL sin in ignorance sometimes. We are imperfect humans and sometimes, we just don't fully know the right thing. The desire would have been pure as fresh-fallen snow, though and fortunately for us, we aren't saved by our perfect knowledge, but by Grace.

    Since the desire would have been following God and since we are saved by grace, I think what will happen is that one day, we'll meet God and God will say, "Really? You thought that was GOOD?? Goofball! But come on in, nonetheless, my good and faithful (if knuckle-headed) child and enter into your rest..."

    That's what I think the orthodox Christian answer is for anyone who sins in ignorance or is otherwise mistaken on topic or behavior X.

    Why? What do you think would happen?

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  41. Dan T.,

    The answer to the first three of your most recent comment questions is pretty much the same: God is capable of preserving His Word.

    And to suggest that believing that the Bible can be understood, and that the Word, the Holy Spirit and the conscience of man is only good in so far as it goes, but cannot operate in fallen man to allow him/her to really know anything beyond his/her opinion is a simplistic way to approach the Bible is to insult a great many believers and the power of the Holy Spirit.

    I cannot make any sense of saying on the one hand that we can trust the Word and the Holy Spirit and then on the other say that we just cannot maintain anything but opinions on any of it because we are flawed. "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us," "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me," "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you," "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth," "But you have an annointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it," "This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence, whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us," "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him." Those are just a small sampling of verses just from John, 1 John and 2 John. I cannot square those verses with the notion that I can have confidence in God but none in anything read or think about what I read beyond opinion if the Holy Spirit is actually working in and through me. If that is simplistic then so be it, i'll gladly accept that label as well.

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  42. Dan T.,

    Continued...

    Your question: "do you think that since I think the text is clear and feel led by the Spirit to my position and that I'm clear on the OT Law, that my position can't be wrong?" I believe that if the text is clear and the Holy Spirit is living and active in a believer's heart then the Holy Spirit will speak to the conscience of the believer to give them confidence to know that clear text is Truth. You agreed previously on a case where the Bible was clear and that the behavior associated with that arrangement was endorsed by God, and it sounded like you knew that to be true so I presume you agree with that assessment. The Bible is sufficient to tell us all we need to know about salvation, trusting Him and obeying Him.

    Your other question: "OUR understanding of a text, OUR understanding of the Spirit's leadership, OUR understanding of God's Law, these are ALL OUR subjective opinions, not an authoritative, objective answer. In what possible way is OUR UNDERSTANDING of a point that is not demonstrable in any objective way NOT subjective?" Is the text clear or not? Is the Holy Spirit able to shine Truth into our hearts that we should know it or are we so systemically deficient in knowing and doing God's will that the Holy Spirit is incapable of overcoming our flawed nature?

    Your last question: "And also the question about using obvious "modern" "external to the Bible" resources such as translations and scholarly research into context, how is that NOT helpful to better understanding the Bible?" Is this the full extent of what you mean by "real world evidence"? There is no question that the extra-biblical resources you listed here are helpful in better understanding the Bible, but that is not what we were discussing - we were talking about things sufficient to know the will of God. I stand by my position that the Bible, with the power of the Holy Spirit operating in and through a believer and working on his/her conscience which has the law of God written thereon is sufficient to know God's will, even if none of the modern resources you listed existed at all.

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  43. Dan T.,

    Continued..and trying to keep up...

    In your question about what if I was wrong you jump to talking about how bad it will be that I have condemned X. I have made specific note (asked specifically asked you to make special note that I made the special note) that I was not condemning anything. My refusing to acknowledge position X' because it is corollary issue that is not addressed is not condemning is it? Please acknowledge that I have not condemned anything as I have specifically written that and reminded you now twice that i've done so. As to what if I am wrong, then I will have failed to celebrate something that was not impressed upon me, I will have sinned against my Heavenly Father and my feelings are described below.

    Your answer to my version of Pascal's wager does make it sound like the worst case scenario of making those extensions we've been discussing really isn't too bad.

    What do I think. I think that the greatest sorrow I will ever know is standing before my Heavenly Father face in hands coming face to face with what I look like against His glory and the knowledge that I have fallen so far short. I cannot imagine how devastating it would be to see any situation before Him where I led someone else through teaching and preaching to endorse and celebrate an activity that He did not clearly reveal as being Holy but that I made extensions on my own. When you and I go on the internet and speak as believers we are teaching and preaching something and will be held accountable for what we are teaching as teachers of God's Truth, it is a fearsome thing. God may well say to me "well done my good and faithful servant," but out of recognition of His Holiness and Righteousness and Glory I cannot make those extensions or teach and lead others into making them.

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  44. Dan T.,

    I have answered all your additional questions, and I think we both know where one another stands. Tomorrow morning i'm going to post a specific example and we can continue there if you'd like to comment on that specific example, but I do think we have covered a lot of ground and pretty well know where we each are on these matters. I will, as always, try to address anything as best I can and appreciate the opportunity to think and discourse on these matters, which are the most important in all of life.

    Blessings.

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  45. Jeremy...

    Please acknowledge that I have not condemned anything as I have specifically written that and reminded you now twice that i've done so.

    I know you have not (yet) suggested gay marriage was wrong. I thought we moved past talking about a specific example and we were using "Topic (or behavior) X" as our reference point and discussing hypotheticals. In the discussion of hypotheticals, I was wondering, hypothetically, what you hypothetically think would be wrong if you condemned Behavior X.

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  46. Dan T.,

    In any case, hypothetical or specific, I strive to make it my practice not to condemn people. Any man heaps condemnation on himself by sinning against God in nature, attitude and action - he does not need my help in that area. What I do try to do in love is point out areas of behavior that do not comport with those that are clear in scripture. For a believer (which is who I assume we are discussing since any non-believer is still in his sins and must be regenerated before coming to see Truth in the first place) the Holy Spirit will, through the process of sanctification, bring light to issues as conviction drives the conscience. It is His timing on when that transformation takes place.

    Having said that, I will point out that refusal to acknowledge Christ Jesus having come in the flesh and being the only way to salvation and everlasting life is certain to bring condemnation from God as that is clear and explicit. My goal there of course is to put Christ Jesus to be the Way, the Truth, the Life, the Lord.

    I hope that would cover all cases, hypothetical or specific and that my comments would be reflective of that desire.

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  47. By "condemn," I meant merely that you would call it a sin.

    Could I ask one more specific question?

    You DO believe that two men or women seeking God's will who decide to marry (whether or not you'd call it that) and have a marriage relationship (which would/could include sexual activity), you DO believe that to be wrong, am I correct?

    That is, you don't hold an agnostic view of the behavior (as you seem to be suggesting I should hold, since the Bible doesn't directly talk about the topic), but rather, you actually have made the conclusion that it IS a sinful situation, isn't that right?

    If so, why would you encourage I take an agnostic view on the behavior ("It may or may not be right, we don't know and can't say because the Bible doesn't tell us...") while you actively think it is sinful?

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  48. Dan T.,

    OK, to me specifically on this specific question. I will address it here since the specific example I am planning for tomorrow is on a different topic.

    I encouraged you to take an agnostic view as opposed to a biblically endorsing and celebratory stance (which I know you have stated is your opinion, the "I find" portion of your quoted position from before) because by your own admission of belief the Bible is silent on gay marriage.

    My view of gay marriage is pretty simple. I do not recognize it as a legitimate arrangement. Biblically marriage is between a man and woman. I have written the scripture and you have agreed the Bible is clear and explicit. I simply do not recognize any other arrangement as legitimate, and this is how I respond to the issue. Biblically it is an illegitimate arrangement, not to be endorsed or celebrated.

    As to the behavioral aspect of physical intimacy (what is legitimate in terms of physical legitimacy):

    "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, 'Be fruitful and increase in number: fill the earth and subdue it.'"

    "It is good for a man not to marry. But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

    "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

    From this it is clear we are to honor God with our bodies, sexual immorality is a sin, a man and woman are to marry to avoid sexual immorality because it is rampant and that the married man and woman are to be physically intimate to be fruitful and multiply and except in times of prayer. Therefore, sexual activity other than a married man and woman is considered to be sinful.

    So, in direct answer to your question I am not agnostic with regard to the behavior (issue of sexual activity) and do not recognize any marriage arrangement other than man and woman.

    Those would be my views and a sampling of some of the scriptural support for them.

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