Thursday, February 4, 2010

Cultural Shift, Majority Rule or Might Makes Right?

In reading the local paper this morning, I came across the following headline: "Cultural shift driving change in military's gay policy."  This was an associated press story, and the link to the entire article (dated February 3, 2010) is provided below, along with a previous piece dated February 2, 2010):

AP Article - Change in Military's Gay Policy

AP Article - Signs of Cultural Shift

My intention here is not to deal with the merit of men or women who have adopted and espouse a homosexual lifestyle actively serving in the military, whether under "Don't ask, Don't tell" or otherwise.  Rather, my concern is more to how we are making decisions in this nation on important moral, ethical and lifestyle issues in our contemporary culture.

Even up to the near recent past, homosexuality as a lifestyle was considered wrong.  Morally wrong as a lifestyle because it was considered sinful, and hurtful to the individual and to the society at large.  This feeling was largely based on the stance on such issues from a Biblical framework.  Biblically the behavior, lifestyle and/or practice is never condoned and is in every case condemned as abhorrent and profane.  The position was clear, the behavior was morally wrong.

In the two articles, however, the idea of right and wrong is absent from the text.  In its place are peppered phrases like, "attitudes and circumstances have changed", "gays and lesbians have been given comprehensive legal status as a protected class", "59 percent of Americans favor allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military", and "the US census has for the first time begun tabulating information about gay couples who live together."  It begs the question, "What does this have to do with whether homosexuality is right or wrong?"

The more I pondered the topic, the more I began to think that the articles did say something about right or wrong.  Perhaps in our contemporary culture whatever is popular culturally at any given time is the right thing, morally, ethically or otherwise.  Perhaps the comments about attitudes, opinions, and circumstances are the pure determining factor as to good, right and truth.

If this is the case, if what is good, right and true is determined by culture then there are some ramifications that must be acknowledged.  If that is the case, then we in America have chosen to call God a liar, or at least have told Him that He cannot exist.  We will have arrogated to ourselves the responsibility of deciding that which is right and that which is wrong.  Whatever God has called good and right is heretofore irrelevant in our society.  We are choosing to expel God and instead ourselves be the pure measure of all things.  Maybe that's the way we want it, maybe we see this as our culture to do with as we wish, maybe we like having the power to decide for ourselves.

I can only say, beware.  We have seen, and we have been told before how that kind of experiment will turn out.  If God does not exist, then we have no excuse and must live up totally with the cultural outworkings of that kind of ideology.  If popular opinion is the litmus test for right and wrong, if God does not exist and is irrelevant in moral choices and we are nothing more than a mindless, pointless collocation of atoms existing only to pass on genetic information then nature read in tooth and claw is the only way, and what remains is not good or bad, objective right or wrong, but might makes right.  First the majority will rule, and decide how culture will go.  Then a popularly elected body will decide for everyone how things will go.  Eventually one man (or woman) will decide how things will go, and those who sound the victory bell now will hear the death knell of freedom and liberty and cry out for answers as to why it all came to pass.

Is this synical, maybe.  Is this extremist fear, hardly.  We have countless accounts through the years of the dangers of a culture driven by the winds of cultural "attitudes and circumstances".  The founders of this nation were keenly aware of the precipice on which this democratic republic stood, and how a religious backdrop was absolutely necessary for morals and the established government to function.  Not Church control of the government, but a society (public, private, government or otherwise) submitted and obedient to an absolute Governer.

I am not addressing here whether or not homosexual men or women should be allowed to serve in the military.  I do not fear or hate any homosexual man or woman.  What I do know is that if such weighty and important moral and ethical questions are to be left to public opinion, to majority rule, to an ideal of might makes right then our nation is not on the proverbial slippery slope, but has rather stepped off the edge by inverting reality by denying what God has deemed good and right and true and instead arrogating to ourselves that solemn duty.

64 comments:

  1. jeremy wrote: "(gay is) Morally wrong as a lifestyle... This feeling was largely based on the stance on such issues from a Biblical framework."

    Exactly. The bible is becoming less and less relevant with each passing day - you can't use the bible as an excuse to hate anymore (I know, you don't ~hate~ gays. But you seem to hate the act of living gay.)

    So if your objection to being gay comes from the bible it's not worth wasting our time on it. If you have some ~other~ reason for denouncing gays then let's hear it!

    jeremy wrote: "Perhaps in our contemporary culture whatever is popular culturally at any given time is the right thing, morally, ethically or otherwise."

    You're beginning to get it... morals have always been subjective and subject to the lives and times of the people.

    jeremy wrote: "If that is the case, then we in America have chosen to call God a liar, or at least have told Him that He cannot exist."

    Saying he doesn't exist is worse to you than calling him a liar?

    Anyway - he doesn't exist. Millions of people living in America don't believe in god - so god has no place in forming public policy. Secular gov't serves all, christian gov't serves only christians.

    jeremy continues: "We will have arrogated to ourselves the responsibility of deciding that which is right and that which is wrong."

    But that's the way it's ALWAYS been! It's always been what the society thinks is right, always. Christian societies will consult the bible for what is right and wrong. Secular societies won't.

    jeremy wrote: "Whatever God has called good and right is heretofore irrelevant in our society."

    BINGO! You got it... and you should get used to it.

    jeremy wrote: "First the majority will rule, and decide how culture will go."

    Where have you been? It's always been that way... it seems that you don't like the non-biblical direction society is heading in but it used to be that the "might" (or majority) had a bible in hand while ruling.

    jeremy wrote: "The founders of this nation were keenly aware of the precipice on which this democratic republic stood, and how a religious backdrop was absolutely necessary for morals and the established government to function."

    I don't see it. Can you explain how a bunch of diests, agnostics and a couple of christians thought a religious backdrop was necessary? They did everything they could to ensure that religion had NO PLACE in official gov't - why would they do that if they thought it was so important for society?

    Incidentally - without using the bible, can you tell me why homosexuality is "wrong" (morally or otherwise)?

    ReplyDelete
  2. J_A: I'll get back to you in a week or so. My wife and I are expecting a child tonight or tomorrow so i'll be most decidedly indisposed for a while.

    Thanks as always for the comment and i'll address each point as best I can when I return.

    Until then...

    ReplyDelete
  3. Congrats to you and your wife Jeremy... talk to you later.

    ReplyDelete
  4. J_A. OK so i'm back, sortof. I don't have a lot of time as the new addition is a great joy but also a lot of work. She is sleeping pretty well at night so praise the Lord we're not too tired, just busy! Anyway, i've only got time to deal with two issues tonight, i'll try to get to the others tomorrow.

    J_A said: "you can't use the bible as an excuse to hate anymore (I know, you don't ~hate~ gays. But you seem to hate the act of living gay." I'm not sure what the difference is between a person who is gay and the act of living gay so I won't comment on that. What I will say is that the only thing I hate is the lie that sex between two human being of the same gender is how things are supposed to be. My belief is that sex is a gift given when a man and woman enter into the covenant of marriage and can only legitimately be experienced in its fullness in that way. Anything else is illegitemate, that's all. I don't hate the person, I just refuse to compromise and lend any sort of legitimacy to sexual relations outside the marriage covenant.

    J_A said: "Can you explain how a bunch of diests, agnostics and a couple of christians thought a religious backdrop was necessary? They did everything they could to ensure that religion had NO PLACE in official gov't - why would they do that if they thought it was so important for society?"

    First of all your statement about "a bunch of deists, agnostics and a couple of christians" is completely false. Any rudimentary study of the source documents for this nation and its founders will lead you to the following demographic for the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention: 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 3 deists, 1 unknown religious preference. That's just 5 1/2% deist, possibly 1 agnostic if we're generous and all the rest Christian. Also, it is elementary and ignorance that would lead one to think that they tried to leave out religion from government. The most cited sources for the founding documents from these same men were Montesquieu, Blackstone and Locke; and not withstanding the overwhelming Calvanistic approach to politics which most held due to their studies, one only has to look at the constitution of almost every state, and the fact that many of the first Presidents issued National proclamations of prayer and fasting. A review of original public and private writings of these men would not lead even the staunchest skeptic to conclude anything other than a particularly Christian foundation for this nation. What they fought against was for a single denomination to dominate the culture, whatever it might be. So, if you want to say that the United States began as a Christian nation but we don't believe or live that way any more, I might be inclined to believe you. If you want to suggest that it was founded by a bunch of deists, agnostics and a handful of Christians; well, let me just say you need to look at some original source documentation.

    J_A said: "Incidentally - without using the bible, can you tell me why homosexuality is "wrong" (morally or otherwise)?"

    I don't understand that question. That's like me asking you - without using hydrogen, can you tell me how one might get water (ice, steam or otherwise)? You cannot take away the source or virtue and then try to explain the unjust.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Jeremy wrote: "What I will say is that the only thing I hate is the lie that sex between two human being of the same gender is how things are supposed to be."

    I don't know that anybody has said that homosexual sex is how it's "supposed to be". I will admit that from a biological evolutionary stand point homosexual sex is not how it's "supposed to be", but happily we've gotten beyond that as a species. We're beyond environmental pressures affecting the human race - we're beyond the grasp of biological evolution*.

    So I have to ask - what do you mean "supposed to be"? Who says? I think it's the bible... but is that the ONLY source?

    * - by this I mean that we (humans) aren't affected by environmental pressures the way we used to be, or the way other species are. When the weather gets progressively colder we don't evolve more body hair to cope, we simply buy thicker coats.

    jeremy wrote: "That's like me asking you - without using hydrogen, can you tell me how one might get water"

    That's a great answer. Your answer is that 'no, you can't explain why homosexuality is "wrong" without using the bible'.
    That's fine, and what I thought your answer would be. Your views on homosexuality are only exaplainable by using the bible, there is no other reason.

    Oh yeah - congrats on your new baby!

    ReplyDelete
  6. J_A:

    Thanks. We are very much enjoying our little girl, she is a precious gift.

    J_A wrote: "we've gotten beyond that as a species. We're beyond environmental pressures affecting the human race - we're beyond the grasp of biological evolution" To get beyond something is get to something else. What do you propose that is? I'm interested to have you develop this more because you say that evolution is as proven as science can do (i.e. your previous declaration that all the evidence points to evolution). If biological evolution is absolutely true (from the scientific form or absolutely true) how then can humankind escape it's grasp? We don't evolve biologically anymore? We don't have to evolve biologically if we choose not to? Please expound further.

    J_A said: "Your answer is that 'no, you can't explain why homosexuality is "wrong" without using the bible". Not quite. What i'm saying is that without an absolute standard of right, wrong does not exist. The absolute standard of right exists because God exists. The Bible is God revealing Himself in written form. If every Bible and every reference to the Bible on the face of the earth were destroyed God would still exist and so an absolute standard of right would exist. Without God, there is no right or wrong.

    As an atheist, wouldn't you agree that even the terms 'right' and 'wrong' could just be eliminated. Why not just use behavior that individuals deem appropriate? That's really all you are saying, everything just boils down to social norms. Someone saying what is acceptible. When you use the term 'right' and 'wrong' there is an implication that it doesn't just apply to you, but also to me because in the context the issue of justice and virtue come in.

    Again to definitions:
    right - in accordance with what is good, proper, or just
    good - morally excellent, vituous, righteous, pious
    just - guided by truth, reason, justice and fairness; based on right; agreeable to truth or fact, true, correct.

    What i'm saying is right, good, just, vituous, pious don't exist without God. I really don't see why you would even want to use them in the first place. Your belief is that each person decides for themselves how to behave. Why not just say that homosexuality is how people choose to behave and leave it at that? All you can say about sex is that it is something humans are capable of doing that brings about a pleasurable response. Good, bad, right, wrong - they simply don't have anything to do with it. Correct me if i've misrepresented your position here.

    You asked me how can homosexuality be deemed wrong without the Bible. I would ask you under an atheistic framework how can good, bad, right, wrong exist at all? Beyond that, why would you even want to invoke those words, wouldn't chosen behavior be more appropriate?

    ReplyDelete
  7. If I may, a couple of thoughts. First, though, congratulations on your newborn. What a blessing!

    Now, where you say,

    Even up to the near recent past, homosexuality as a lifestyle was considered wrong.

    ...would it be okay if I clarified that what you mean by this is, until recently, the majority of people believed that "homosexuality as a lifestyle" (whatever that means) was wrong? Would that not be a fair summation of the thought your positing there?

    And thus, the articles were suggesting that NOW, an increasing number of people DON'T believe homosexuality itself is wrong, or that committed, healthy gay relationships are wrong.

    That is, before the majority thought that gay marriage was wrong and now, an increasing number of people are less sure that it is wrong, and that soon, it appears that a majority will believe it to be a moral good?

    If that is a fair summation of those ideas, then we're still making decisions on what is right and wrong, it's just that the public perception of what is right and wrong on the particular topic of gay relationships has changed. Not unlike the public perception of what was right and wrong about interracial relationships has changed from what it used to be?

    Our public/civic values are always changing. Sometimes for the better (away from racism and sexism, for instance) and sometimes for the worse (towards an embrace of materialism, perhaps as an example?).

    In my own life, I have changed my position about homosexual relationships NOT out of a desire to fit in with the majority, but out of a desire to seek what is good and true. I used to believe that the Bible clearly condemned all homosexuality. I now think that is an unfair and inappropriate biblical position to take.

    Regardless, the point is, I'm seeking that which is good and holy and true and I don't think I'm unique on that front.

    Sometimes, changing opinions is a good thing, if we were mistaken in the first place, right?

    ReplyDelete
  8. I hope this is clear...

    Evolution is true. All animals will continue to evolve forever. Humans are still evolving, but not to the degree that nature would normally have had us evolving.

    My cold weather example was a good one (IMO). If we go back 10,000 years and look at a tribe of humans it would be clear that survival was tough. If the temperatures started to drop, for instance, these humans would have felt it. They would have to kill more animals for warm clothes. Humans that developed more body hair for warmth would be naturally selected and propogate their genes more than their colder less-haired brothers. This is how natural selection works.

    If the same environmental change were to happen today we'd just raise our thermostats a few degrees, buy a warmer jacket at the store and call it a day. It wouldn't affect our ability to spread our genes the way it would have 10,000 years ago.

    That's what I meant by escaping the grasp of natural selection. Humans are still evolving, it's just that we control our environments better and hence aren't affected by natural selection to the same degree we were in the past.

    jeremy asks: "As an atheist, wouldn't you agree that even the terms 'right' and 'wrong' could just be eliminated."

    No, but their meanings aren't always concrete. I don't think homosexuality is wrong but you do. The word "wrong" is apt in this case as you think homosexuality is wrong. What is right and wrong is often subjective.

    jeremy wrote: "Why not just say that homosexuality is how people choose to behave and leave it at that?"

    Because it also happens to be harmless. Intolerance towards homosexuals is rampant and appears to stem from the bible. This is unjust (that word again).

    I don't think homosexuality is "right" though... It might be right for Elton John but not right for me. It's certainly not wrong IMO though.

    jeremy wrote: "All you can say about sex is that it is something humans are capable of doing that brings about a pleasurable response. Good, bad, right, wrong - they simply don't have anything to do with it."

    Yup... that about sums it up. The only thing I would add is that it ~is~ wrong when it's forced on someone.
    Consenting adults engaging in whatever they want in their bedrooms is fine with me.

    jeremy asked: "I would ask you under an atheistic framework how can good, bad, right, wrong exist at all?"

    There is a society we all belong to. Society (not god) sets the rules. In our society it's currently wrong to own a slave - but 200 years ago it was right. What is right/wrong can change over time.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Dan,

    First off, welcome to the site and thanks for taking the time to contribute to the discussion. Thanks also for the kind words, we are enjoying our daughter very much and look forward to a new journey.

    Regarding your comments, I would say first that your clarification is OK with me. My intent was to say that right and wrong does not change, culture will always move with popular opinion but what is right remains unswayed. I might take exception with the phrase "healthy gay relationships". If healthy here is meant to be a synonym for good then there is no such thing, as i've postulated. If healthy means fine as the contemporary culture sees it then no problem.

    I also want to commend you for your search into what is good and true. Goodness and truth does not exist apart from God.

    You said: "I have changed my position about homosexual relationships NOT out of a desire to fit in with the majority, but out of a desire to seek what is good and true. I used to believe that the Bible clearly condemned all homosexuality. I now think that is an unfair and inappropriate biblical position to take."

    I would only ask here, with respect, if you would please point out to me the scriptural reference that deals explicitly with homosexuality in the Bible that led you to believe the condemnation of it to be inappropriate.

    ReplyDelete
  10. J_A said: "I hope this is clear" I'm afraid it wasn't. I'm unclear on several things.

    First for what is IMO an abbreviation? You used it twice and I couldn't figure it out based on the context.

    Second, you said: "That's what I meant by escaping the grasp of natural selection. Humans are still evolving, it's just that we control our environments better and hence aren't affected by natural selection to the same degree we were in the past." Have we extricated ourselves from the grasp of natural selection, or are we still in the grasp but just to a different degree? I don't see how both can be true. This is also confusing because the natural is all there is, right? So nothing can escape nature. That would be supernature, which doesn't exist. It seems like you're trying to elevate mankind into a semi-transcendent state where he has evolved to a point beyond the reach of natural processes. I know you said we're effected to a different degree, but if that's the case it's conceivable to think with time man would evolve to a point where nature had absolutely no bearing. The natural man completely beyond nature. Do you see that as a possibility with more advancements in technology (which you seem to be stating is the vehicle for this "escape").

    ReplyDelete
  11. J_A said: "Intolerance towards homosexuals is rampant and appears to stem from the bible. This is unjust"

    Again, i'm confused. I have already given you what I believe the Biblical position on homosexuality to be, namely illegitimaticy with regard to sexual behavior. To tolerate something is to put up with it even if you don't agree with it (in this context). So to be intolerant of homosexuality would just mean you aren't willing to put up with or remain around those who choose to behave in that way. This would not be unjust just a decision to not be surrounded by behavior with which you do not agree. Tolerance, acceptance and compromise are not positives in the absolute. It also seems a bit of a categorical assertion to say it "appears to stem from the bible".

    If there is hatred of the homosexual, or violence toward the homosexual, then that is another matter entirely.

    What makes an action unjust, by the way?

    ReplyDelete
  12. J_A said: "I don't think homosexuality is "right" though... It might be right for Elton John but not right for me. It's certainly not wrong IMO though.

    and

    "Society (not god) sets the rules. In our society it's currently wrong to own a slave - but 200 years ago it was right. What is right/wrong can change over time."

    I'm afraid you just don't make any sense here Joe. You don't think homosexuality is right but it's not wrong? It's right for Elton John but not right for you? Look again at the definition of right from before. I don't know why you insist on using the word right. Homosexuality is not your chosen behavior, it is Elton John's chosen behavior; that is all you can say.

    The whole notion of relative right and wrong is completely absurd. It's nonsense to say something like it's wrong for me to cannibalize someone, but for Jeffrey Dahmer it was right. Why, because there happened to be a law against it? Can you honestly say to me from your heart that if there was no law on the books prohibiting the act, that if one of your neighbors ate one of your other neighbors he wouldn't have done anything wrong? You have got to see that that action is wrong no matter what the current law says, no matter what society says, don't you?

    ReplyDelete
  13. jermey asked: "First for what is IMO an abbreviation?"

    In My Opinion. Also IMHO which is In My Honest Opinion.

    jeremy asked: "Have we extricated ourselves from the grasp of natural selection, or are we still in the grasp but just to a different degree?"

    Just a different degree. I thought my example made this obvious. 10,000 years ago a dip of several degrees in local temperature would have had VERY different evolutionary results than it would today. Today it wouldn't have ANY affect - we'd just buy coats and pump up the furnace!

    jeremy wrote: "the natural is all there is, right? So nothing can escape nature."

    Not true! Nature throws a snow storm at us and we escape it by going inside, wearing better snow gear etc.

    How do you explain the difference in evolutionary behavior between humans now and 10,000 years ago (in my example)?

    jeremy wrote: "it's conceivable to think with time man would evolve to a point where nature had absolutely no bearing."

    While that is VERY unlikely it's hypothetically possible, yes. Unbelievably improbable though.

    jeremy wrote: "So to be intolerant of homosexuality would just mean you aren't willing to put up with or remain around those who choose to behave in that way. This would not be unjust just a decision to..."

    It's "unjust" because it is discrimination against a group of people that deserve the same rights as the rest of us. They lose out on jobs, benefits and much more simply because they love the same sex.

    jeremy wrote: "It also seems a bit of a categorical assertion to say it 'appears to stem from the bible'."

    You have already stated that without the bible you cannot account for your anti-gay sentiments. That's "stems from the bible" I'm afraid.

    jeremy asks: "What makes an action unjust, by the way?"

    In my mind an action is unjust if is harms an innocent person. Gays are unfairly harmed and are innocent.

    ****

    Regarding right/wrong in your last comment: I stand by my statement that "What is right/wrong can change over time.".

    I think a pretty good way to decide what is right/wrong is whether something harms someone else... but that's just me. It ~does~ change over time as my slavery example shows.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Have you somehow set this up to not allow pasting? I've written up a response, but for some reason I'm unable to paste it in the box here...

    This happened on my home computer so I figured it was just acting up, but now I'm at work and can't paste here, either. Anything on your end?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Jeremy asked...

    I would only ask here, with respect, if you would please point out to me the scriptural reference that deals explicitly with homosexuality in the Bible that led you to believe the condemnation of it to be inappropriate.

    I could certainly try. I will note first, though, that I'm no theologian. I'm simply a Christian fella who was raised as a traditional southern Baptist and who, in seeking God's will over the last 37 years of my Christian walk, moved to a more Mennonite belief system. I was diametrically opposed to gay marriage or anything of the sort the first half of my life and was sure the bible was opposed to any and every sort of gay behavior. However, in looking at the arguments on the other side, prayerfully considering what the Bible actually does and doesn't say about the issue, I've changed my position.

    Doubtless, others have written more authoratively and ably on the topic, and if you're interested, I could link you to those type of folk. But if you'd like, I can try to give you the basics of why I've changed my position, as best as I can explain it (it might take a bit, even to do a short explanation)...

    ReplyDelete
  16. 1. In looking at the Bible honestly and carefully, I was surprised to find how very little homosexual behavior of any sort is talked about in the Bible, much less condemned. As it turns out, there are really only about 5-6 passages in the whole Bible that are or seem to be talking about gay behavior.

    2. Two of those are in the OT, in Leviticus, chapters 18 and 20. There are about two or three verses in the NT that refer to "effeminate" or "homosexual" or "homosexual offenders." Then there is the Romans 1 passage. That is the whole of Biblical coverage of the issue. Jesus had nothing to say on the topic one way or the other.

    3. I would note that clearly there is not a single passage in all of the Bible that specifically endorses gay marriage, nor healthy gay relationships. There is not a single passage that condemns healthy gay relationships,either.

    Basically, that's what it comes down to me. I think in my own humble opinion that the topic of healthy gay relationships is not covered in the Bible. Just like recycling is not covered in the Bible (although most of us might think that's a good thing, even though it's not endorsed or condemned in the Bible), or nuclear bombs are not covered in the Bible, etc, etc. It is a topic that is missing in the Bible, that's what it comes down to me.

    And when a topic is not covered in the Bible, we have to sort out as best we can what is good and what isn't. I have come down on the side that gay marriage seems clearly to be a good, holy thing. I can't "prove" it from the bible, since the Bible is silent on the issue, but that is my conclusion nonetheless.

    But let me look at those passages to see what they are and aren't saying...

    ReplyDelete
  17. Looking at each of those passages, then...

    1. The Leviticus passages are in a section that begins with warnings not to be like the pagans, either in Egypt where they've been or in Canaan, where they're going.

    You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.

    There follows this a series of warnings about behaviors to avoid. They seem to all be in reference to ritualistic practices, such as temple orgies, temple prostitution, offering your children to be sacrificed to Moloch! Horrible stuff, no disputating that.

    But it does not seem to be talking about what we might call today a healthy heterosexual or homosexual relationship, such as in marriage. Now, some of the practices in this section - bestiality, for instance, or child sacrifice - are clearly wrong no matter what the context is, pagan worship or not.

    However, in this same section, it says that "men who lay with men" ought to be put to death. Most of us would agree that THIS is not a good or Godly thing to do, today. Also, in this same section of passages (chapter 19), we see that planting a field with two seeds is wrong (a point most of us might think not applicable today), that wearing blended material, like polyester, for instance, is condemned (a point which most of us might think not applicable today), eating meat with blood in it is condemned (a point which most of us might think not applicable today) and so on.

    In short, not everyone of those items condemned do we consider to be universally wrong. Of the actions condemned as wrong in these passages, we have a mix of some things that are obviously (to most people) wrong, some things that are obviously NOT wrong and some things on which we may not be sure.

    So, the question might be: On what basis do we write off some of these "wrongs" as not universally wrong and some as always wrong?

    Was the "men laying with men," phrases referring specifically to temple orgies and not every instance of gay behavior, as some think? That seems to be what it's talking about to me, once I prayerfully looked at it. Could I be wrong? Sure, but that's how it seems to me, now, as I seek to discern God's will and what is good and right.

    I would assume it seems to you that it must be referring to any and all gay behavior. But could you be mistaken? I know that I certainly could be mistaken, I'm a fallen, fallible human, after all.

    2. The other NT passages where "homosexual" sometimes appears, the word translated "homosexual" in some translations is not the greek word for "homosexual," I'm told. There WAS a word the greeks used for homosexual and that's not what Paul uses in these passages. Instead, two other words were used, "malaokois," and "arsenokoitai."

    ReplyDelete
  18. From Mel White...

    Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes."

    As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys." We might call them "dirty old men." Others translate the word as "sodomites," but never explain what that means.

    In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.


    source

    (that source is a great, but longer, summary that is not far off from what I believe, if you want to read more.)

    So, the appearances of the word "homosexual" does not seem to be - in the Bible - speaking of any and all homosexual behavior, but a specific subset that is more related to prostitution or pedaphilia, both of which we can agree are wrong.

    3. That leaves the Romans 1, passage. But once again, we see that the context is that of pagan ritualistic worship. Paul says...

    Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    Romans 1 is speaking of people who have chosen to worship idols and engage in practices like temple prostitution (or that is how it seems to me, in context). Again, I could be wrong in all of this and all of this explanation is an extremely shortened version of the prayerful study process I went through in seeking God's will on this matter.

    My point was that sometimes, we may sincerely seek God's will and come to a different conclusion from one Christian to another. I chalk it up to human fallibility. In this case, I assume you're sincerely mistaken due to your fallibility and you may well believe that I'm mistaken, but hopefully, you'd have the grace to concede that if I'm mistaken, it's a sincere mistake.

    That is where I'd hope we could be as the body of Christ - standing by our positions and defending them, to be sure, but allowing grace for one another that sometimes, we may earnestly seek God's will and come to differing conclusions.

    ReplyDelete
  19. J_A said: "Not true! Nature throws a snow storm at us and we escape it by going inside, wearing better snow gear etc.

    How do you explain the difference in evolutionary behavior between humans now and 10,000 years ago (in my example)?"

    Maybe we have a different idea of what the natural is as well. I don't see how changing locations in nature is an escape from nature.

    With regard to reaction to weather, i'd say that our behavior has changed with improving ways of manipulating the resources around us. A coat is made of natural materials, even the synthetic ones originate with available natural materials; same with the homes we run into. Manipulating natural resources is not escaping from nature, just operating within it.

    J_A said: "While that is VERY unlikely it's hypothetically possible, yes. Unbelievably improbable though."

    If it is possible to get to a point where nature has no bearing then mankind would be above nature, or supernatural. You have said the supernatural doesn't exist. How can this be?

    J_A said: "It's "unjust" because it is discrimination against a group of people that deserve the same rights as the rest of us."

    We were talking about the word tolerant here. How does me leaving a room because I don't want to be there discriminate against anyone in the room? Discrimination is different than a lack of tolerance.

    J_A said: "In my mind an action is unjust if is harms an innocent person. Gays are unfairly harmed and are innocent."

    and

    "I think a pretty good way to decide what is right/wrong is whether something harms someone else... but that's just me. It ~does~ change over time as my slavery example shows."

    With respect, that didn't answer my question. You are saying good, bad, right, wrong are all subjective and change with time. If your neighbor consumed your other neighbor and it was socially acceptible and there was no law against it on your view it would be right to do. Does that mean the one that was consumed wasn't harmed? Same with your point on slavery. When slavery was legal and socially acceptible you would have to say it was right to do. Are you then saying that at that time that those who were enslaved were not harmed?

    What I am saying is that slavery was wrong then and now, society just moved from doing what was wrong to doing what was right. Cannibalizing a neighbor is always wrong. Society moves between right and wrong, society doesn't define right and wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Dan,

    I'm sorry about the pasting issue. I have no protection in place to prevent cut and paste, I do it quite often from several different word processing software. I hope you didn't have to re-type the whole response.

    Thanks also for providing your point of view. I read through it all. I cannot respond to each point, but I would encourage you to consider two things.

    First, you said: "bestiality, for instance, or child sacrifice - are clearly wrong no matter what the context is, pagan worship or not. "

    Why is that? Why is bestiality wrong? You excluded homosexuality as being wrong because the passage was only addressing pagan worship and not the act per se, so why not the same for bestiality? I would suggest that it is for the reason I stated previously, namely that in the creation account in Genesis we read "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it..." God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." and, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found...The the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,, and they will become one flesh."

    This was the creation account before the fall. God looked over this and the rest of creation and said it was very good. God established by His own nature what was good and that was man and woman, leaving their father and mother and becoming one flesh. This is the legitimate relationship first established. Beastiality is always wrong because it is an illegitimate representation of what God established. Homosexuality is always wrong for the same reason. I believe it to be an error to look at any of these most difficult of issues from the perspective of "Where are we told for sure we shouldn't do it." There is a bigger issue at stake, namely the Holiness of God. We must look at what God called good, what He established. Anything other than that is wrong.

    Two: We must be careful when we say that Jesus never addressed certain issues. We have a record of some of the things Jesus said while He walked the earth. Remember that volumes could not contain all that Jesus did while on earth. Also, as a Southern Baptist I assume you still hold to a Trinitarian view of God, which means that Jesus' view would be consistant with God the Father's as it is one and the same.

    These are difficult questions that we must all deal with so we can provide some cogent answers, to be sure. But we must always look to what God has called good and never condone behavior that differs from what is good. We must consider all of scripture, as you have well stated. Consider with me a little further up in Romans 1 as I have to sign out for now: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

    God made man and woman for man, that was good. Other expressions are simply illegitimate. We should have grace for one another and I hope this response has not come off as aloof or antagonistic. We all fall short of the glory of God, but He shines the light of truth into our lives. I will pray for both of us as we continue to search the scriptures for the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  21. We all fall short of the glory of God, but He shines the light of truth into our lives. I will pray for both of us as we continue to search the scriptures for the truth.

    Well now, that's all we can hope for, isn't it? That we pray for us all - Baptists, Anabaptists, Catholics, Christians, Muslims, non-theists - that we all can successfully search for Truth?

    I just think it worthwhile to keep in mind that we are fallen, imperfect humanity and oftentimes we make mistakes - even when the majority of people agree with us, or even if it's the majority of Christians agreeing with us, we may still be mistaken, since none of us are perfect.

    The point is, to keep trying and to allow others the grace and support to keep trying, too. Even if we think they're mistaken.

    Even if we're sure of it.

    Which is not to say that we might not try to correct what we believe to be a false understanding, just that we do so with the humility appropriate for a fallible human being.

    Jeremy said...

    God made man and woman for man, that was good. Other expressions are simply illegitimate. We should have grace for one another and I hope this response has not come off as aloof or antagonistic.

    And I fully understand that this is your view, that you believe the Bible to teach that "other expressions are simply illegitimate" and I would have strongly agreed with you at one point. Certainly many if not most within the church STILL agree with you.

    I no longer do.

    Perhaps this gets back to what you and Joe have been talking about, at least a bit?

    I certainly agree with you that some things just are wrong and generally always are wrong. Killing children is fairly consistently wrong - whether it's a wild-eyed terrorist doing the killing or a person of faith who believes that God wants them to do the killing, it is still wrong. Objectively so.

    Perhaps Joe is right that "Do no harm" might be our first criteria for judging right and wrong. I think I would disagree with the notion that Christians have a corner on the morality market. Some things are easily enough discerned. God HAS given us the ability to reason for ourselves, after all, right? And we DO have God's law written upon our hearts, right?

    Some truths are just self-evident, wouldn't you agree?

    ReplyDelete
  22. Jeremy asked...

    Why is that? Why is bestiality wrong? You excluded homosexuality as being wrong because the passage was only addressing pagan worship and not the act per se, so why not the same for bestiality?

    Well, as I noted earlier, I think some truths are self-evident. Perhaps the most obvious examples of self-evident truths involve harming innocents or doing harmful things to innocent ones against their will. It is for this reason that we can safely say that killing a child is an obvious moral wrong. AND, I think, it is for this reason we can safely assume that bestiality is a wrong - there can be no consensual acts towards an animal.

    Even for those who strive to take the Bible fairly literally, we are ultimately doing so using our own reasoning, so it's not like we can set aside our reasoning and just say, "Well, the Bible says so, so it must be true." After all, the Bible says that God commanded people to kill babies, yet we know that killing babies is a moral wrong. The Bible says unequivocally that we are to kill disrespectful children, "men who lay with men," women who are raped and others and yet we know (or at least I think we know) that all of these actions are morally wrong.

    No, none of us takes the Bible literally. We aren't plucking out our eyes just because Jesus told us to do so and we're not selling our belongings and giving them to the poor just because Jesus told us so. We all use our reasoning to sort out what parts of the Bible are speaking truths that are universal and that we ought to follow and which parts are speaking either of some mystery, or are speaking symbolically or hyperbolically, etc.

    Or at least that's how it seems to me.

    Would you agree?

    (On the inability to paste in, I discovered that it appeared to be because I had not yet signed in with my name - I've never come across that before!)

    ReplyDelete
  23. Dan said: "Perhaps Joe is right that "Do no harm" might be our first criteria for judging right and wrong. I think I would disagree with the notion that Christians have a corner on the morality market."

    No, Joe is not right here. If I lie to you and nothing harmful happens to you, have I done anything wrong? Of course, because the offense isn't against you, but against God because He established truth as the legitimate expression. This is one of the most definitive arguments for Jesus' claim to deity by the way. He said on numerous occasions, "Your sins are forgiven you." The person offended someone else and yet Jesus forgave them, as if He were the party offended. This is also illustrated beautifully by David following Nathan's reproach where he states in his lament "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge." Psalm 51:4 David comitted adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah killed, but he acknowledged that it was against God and His established good behavior that he had offended.

    Dan said: "Some truths are just self-evident, wouldn't you agree?"

    That depends, Dan. If you mean by self-evident that we come to know them on our own, apart from God then I would say absolutely not. Romans 3, taken from the Psalms says "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." We are all sinners. Throughout our lives we do things that are right and wrong, but not because we are good or because we know the truth. Again, Jesus didn't come to make sick people well, He came to make dead people live. We are dead in our sins, we are made alive in Christ. Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life. He shines the light into our lives so we will see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Dan said: "AND, I think, it is for this reason we can safely assume that bestiality is a wrong - there can be no consensual acts towards an animal."

    I just think we have to be very careful here Dan. We are told in Revelation not to add to nor take away from scripture. Terms like consensual acts as a litmus test for sexual behavior is a societal construction not a Biblical truth. Consent between adults is not a Biblical idea. Again, I have given you the Biblical construction for legitimate relations, chapter and verse. Do you believe that the Genesis passages I presented are the establishment of God? This takes me to the next comment...

    Dan said: "No, none of us takes the Bible literally."

    Again we need to be careful. The Bible is made up of many different literary styles and was written by many writers over a period of thousands of years. What is critical in reading the Bible is context. When Jesus is telling a parable about plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand, the context tells us He is not commanding us to mutiliate ourselves but to graphically bring to bear the gravity of sin and our need to take drastic action to avoid it. Many Old Testament passages are misread in the same way.

    There is also a bigger thing at stake here. If you say you don't take all the Bible literally then the question will be which parts have you decided you don't have to take literally? Everything that doesn't begin with "Thou shalt not"? The Bible is God's revelation of Himself, God-breathed, inspired. Nothing is there without reason, we must never assume the right to discard what we wish. So I would agree in that sense.

    Again, where does good come from? God or sinners? The fact that we agree we are fallible and riddled with mistakes should convince us that it cannot be left up to us. God in His nature is goodness, He created and said what was good. Anything other than that is bad, or wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Thanks for the thoughtful responses and questions, Jeremy. If I may help clarify...

    Dan said: "Perhaps Joe is right that "Do no harm" might be our first criteria for judging right and wrong.

    Jeremy replied...

    No, Joe is not right here. If I lie to you and nothing harmful happens to you, have I done anything wrong? Of course, because the offense isn't against you, but against God because He established truth as the legitimate expression.

    Perhaps I failed to make myself clear. When I say, "'Do no harm' might be our first criteria...," I am speaking humanly. Yes, of course, God knows all right and wrong and we are to seek God's ways. BUT, we are fallible humans. We don't - can't - perfectly divine all of God's truths. So, what I'm saying is ONE MEASURE (perhaps a primary measure, as far as we're concerned) is "Am I causing harm to others by this action?" If we are causing harm (and this Is generally something we can tell, at least in more obvious cases of death and physical harm), then we probably are not acting in such a way that is loving, holy or Godly.

    If I pick up a child by his hair and fling him against a wall because he spoke disrespectfully to me, then I would say it is safe to presume that I am not acting in a moral manner. EVEN IF the bible does not specifically condemn such behavior, I think it is self-evidently bad behavior. No doubt, the atheist, the Muslim or just about anyone except for some seriously disturbed people, would agree with me on this point.

    Wouldn't you agree thus far?

    Which is not to say that other actions that DON'T cause harm can't be wrong or sinful, just that this is ONE fairly easy to establish criteria for what is and isn't wrong.

    Yes? No?

    ReplyDelete
  26. Dan said: "Some truths are just self-evident, wouldn't you agree?"

    Jeremy replied...

    That depends, Dan. If you mean by self-evident that we come to know them on our own, apart from God then I would say absolutely not.

    As a Christian, I believe all truth comes from God. I believe (as the Bible says) that God's law is written upon our hearts. I believe God has revealed God's Self to us all in a variety of ways (again, as the bible says).

    And so, I agree with Thomas Jefferson and others that some truths ARE self-evident, and by that, I mean that there are some things that we can agree upon as members of the human race as necessarily right or good. From the Christian's perspective, it is because, we think, God has written a law upon our hearts, has burned God's imprint upon our conscience, because we are created in the image of God with the God-given ability to reason.

    And this law, this reason is there in all of humanity, regardless if the people involved believe in God the same way as we do or believe in God at all.

    Wouldn't you agree?

    Jeremy said...

    I just think we have to be very careful here Dan. We are told in Revelation not to add to nor take away from scripture.

    I don't intend to add anything to the Bible. I'm offering my opinion.


    Dan said: "No, none of us takes the Bible literally."

    Jeremy replied...

    Again we need to be careful. The Bible is made up of many different literary styles and was written by many writers over a period of thousands of years. What is critical in reading the Bible is context. When Jesus is telling a parable about plucking out an eye or cutting off a hand, the context tells us He is not commanding us to mutiliate ourselves but to graphically bring to bear the gravity of sin and our need to take drastic action to avoid it. Many Old Testament passages are misread in the same way.

    Yes! I agree wholeheartedly! The Bible IS written in a variety of styles, by many writers in many contexts and in many ways. It IS critical to strive to understand context.

    You and I agree that Jesus was using hyperbole when he said to pluck out our eyes or cut off our hands. We may or may not agree that the Creation story was told using mythic - not scientific or historical - language. In thinking that the Creation story is told using mythic language in no way diminishes its Great Truths and one can hold that position as a Christian without being anti-Bible or opposed to God.

    None of us DO take the Bible literally, rather, we strive - the best we can as fallible people - to understand the teachings in context, considering what writing style was employed, who the audience was, what the intent was, etc.

    Yes?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Jeremy said...

    There is also a bigger thing at stake here. If you say you don't take all the Bible literally then the question will be which parts have you decided you don't have to take literally?

    Yes, that IS a question for all of us. How do YOU decide what parts to not take literally? How did you decide that Jesus was using hyperbole in telling folk to cut off their hands? Have you decided that the Genesis story was told using mythic language? If so, how did you decide that? If not, how did you decide that it is told using something closer to a scientific or historic style?

    In either case, we as fallible humans, are having to decide using our God-given reason how best to interpret any given passage. Right? I mean, what else IS there but our reason? (With the assumption that it is in the context of prayerful study, of course).

    Jeremy said...

    Again, where does good come from? God or sinners? The fact that we agree we are fallible and riddled with mistakes should convince us that it cannot be left up to us.

    Well, I'm not sure that I agree here. It IS left to us. God is not going to "force" you to have an opinion on a given passage, right? You have to read it and YOU have to decide what it means, prayerfully, carefully decide what it means, right?

    If it isn't you making those calls in your Bible study, who is?

    I'd suggest we need to be careful not to let others make those decisions for us, although we can certainly be informed by others and by tradition, ultimately, interpretation of the Bible, of politics, of the world around us, it is all something we do as individuals, right?

    For instance, there are verses that literally say "God says, 'Go in and kill the whole city, men, women and children.'" Now, we all have to look at verses like that and decide if God sometimes commands people to kill innocent people (children!).

    At the same time, we know the Bible condemns the shedding of innocent blood. So, using our reason, we can see that they can't both be wholly literal. Looking at the Bible, we know that God "is not the author of evil," that God does not tempt us to sin. So, it seems that either killing other people's innocent babies is acceptable sometimes or it is always wrong and we have to prayerfully sort through what the Bible says and doesn't say and strive to figure out - using our God-given reason and the rest of the Bible testimony and the testimony/tradition of others - what is and isn't right?

    Does that mean that the passages that condemns the shedding of innocent blood are not to be taken literally? Or DOES God sometimes command the shedding of innocent blood, contrary to what those other passages say?

    It can seem like a lot to wade through, at times. For my part, though, I don't think it's really all that hard, but it does require some humility and the recognition that we ARE using our reasoning, flawed as it is. From there, we just prayerfully strive to do the best we can, by God's grace.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Dan said: "ONE MEASURE (perhaps a primary measure, as far as we're concerned) is "Am I causing harm to others by this action?"

    I will agree that harm being done to another is one measure (the existential or physical manifestation) of wrongdoing, but I still believe the Word of God will always be the primary measure.

    Not to argumentative but I think we need to consider all the ramifications of harmful behavior. Against whom have we sinned when we commit harmful acts?

    ReplyDelete
  29. There is a law written on the hearts of man, the knowledge we all have that some things are right and some things are wrong. We just don't build our faith on that "common knowledge". We now have the Word of God where we look for what God has said is good.

    Dan said: "In thinking that the Creation story is told using mythic language in no way diminishes its Great Truths and one can hold that position as a Christian without being anti-Bible or opposed to God."

    I would say that it does, Dan. The reason we are having this discussion is because the moment you see the account of creation as a myth you feel like you see "pictures" or "morals" in the sense that you would see other myths. The Bible is not a book of myths. History, poetic, prophetic, yes. Not myths.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Jeremy...

    The reason we are having this discussion is because the moment you see the account of creation as a myth you feel like you see "pictures" or "morals" in the sense that you would see other myths. The Bible is not a book of myths. History, poetic, prophetic, yes. Not myths.

    Let me back up a bit, if I may: We DO agree that the Bible is written in a variety of styles using a variety of literary techniques, yes?

    You and I do agree that there is allusion, hyperbole, allegory, parable, poetry, story and other styles and techniques in the Bible, right?

    The question you asked earlier, then, I think still applies: How do we know if and when a story is allegory? How do we know if or when a story is using hyperbole? How do we know if or when a story is told in a factual history style, as we might expect history to be written today?

    What makes you think that some parts of the Bible aren't told using mythic language? IF God wanted to see the Bible written using mythic language, do you think God could have done so?

    ReplyDelete
  31. Jeremy asked...

    Not to argumentative but I think we need to consider all the ramifications of harmful behavior. Against whom have we sinned when we commit harmful acts?

    I doubt that you and I disagree on this point. When one sins (let's say when one commits murder), one commits a harmful act obviously directly against the victim, but also against the victim's family, against the greater community, against humanity and against God.

    I imagine we would agree on that much.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Dan said: "You have to read it and YOU have to decide what it means."

    No. The Bible is God-breathed, inspired. The meaning of each and every word is God's not ours. How do I read the Bible? I open in prayer asking the Holy Spirit to shine truth into my life so that I may change to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. I don't decide what to believe and what not to believe, what is true and what is not. It is the Holy Spirit that gives that truth. I have an intellect and an ability to reason, and both those things like everything else must be submitted to God.

    Proverbs tells us: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight."

    I would ask you to carefully consider these words and those of Romans 3 from before. This is an absolutely critical discussion and I thank you for entering into it. I do think you are making a mistake on this issue. Homosexuality is wrong because God established relations between man and woman in the covenant relationship of marriage as good. That is the truth. You cannot point to one place in scripture where that mandate is reversed or altered in any way. That is not my opinion, that is what the Word says.

    I know i'm being a bit stern here, but this is foundational and clear from the Word of God.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Jeremy said...

    The Bible is God-breathed, inspired. The meaning of each and every word is God's not ours. How do I read the Bible? I open in prayer asking the Holy Spirit to shine truth into my life so that I may change to be conformed to the likeness of Christ. I don't decide what to believe and what not to believe, what is true and what is not. It is the Holy Spirit that gives that truth.

    I'm not sure I understand your position here. Do you think that, because you are praying for Truth, that you will always perfectly understand the Bible and make not a single error, because the Holy Spirit will prevent you from making an error in reading the Bible? It sounds like you're suggesting that some people can have perfect understanding of right and wrong, which would be contrary to the orthodox view that we are fallible humans, always capable of error.

    After all, Jeremy opens the bible and prays for understanding and the Holy Spirit helps provide light on Jeremy's understanding.

    At the same time, DAN opens the bible and prays for understanding and the Holy Spirit helps provide light on Dan's understanding.

    And yet, Dan and Jeremy sometimes may come to different opinions on a given topic. Why is that? Well, because we're fallible. As hard as it is for me to believe, sometimes DAN makes mistakes. If you're anything like me, Jeremy, sometimes you make mistakes, too. Sometimes, we are simply wrong in our understanding, even when we prayerfully seek God's will.

    Right?

    Could you clarify, please?

    ReplyDelete
  34. Dan:

    Maybe backing up would be best. What do you mean when you refer to a myth? We can start there.

    As to reading and truth, I was not suggesting I know it all, merely telling you my approach to reading the Bible, that's all. I do and will make mistakes on reading the Bible and many other things and always will. We are discussing homosexuality here and so all my comments are in relation to that topic. I am saying that God established relations between a man and a woman in the covenant of marriage as good. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong. I've made this point several times and you haven't responded directly. Do you deny that God established that covenant in Genesis? Because you brought up the issue of "mythical language" are you suggesting that this is one of those "myths" that we shouldn't see as Truth (based on your definition of myth above)?

    ReplyDelete
  35. Maybe backing up would be best. What do you mean when you refer to a myth? We can start there.

    Just the standard definition, as in Merriam Webster: an allegorical narrative

    Peoples around the world have used the language of myth to express real truths throughout history. For instance, the Iroquois creation story found here, or the Egyptian story told here. It is, as they say on that last page, "to try to explain their place in the cosmos."

    If you read creation myths, you see stories that are told relating very real TRUTHs, but that are not told using actual facts. By all physical evidence, the world was not literally laid on the back of a turtle, as in the Iroquois myth, nor literally out of the water, as in the Egyptian myth, nor in six actual 24 hour days, as in the Genesis story.

    Now, I know some people (myself included, at one time) would take offense at the term "myth," but no offense is intended. It is not a slight to the Iroquois people to refer to their Creation story as a myth, the truths told in that story are I'm sure quite literally TRUE. It's just a way of separating out a literally factual story from a story intended to pass on literal truths, not literal facts.

    The creation story in Genesis simply is not a science text. It is telling the very real truth that the world was created by God's hand in language that was accessible and understandable to the people at the time. There was no need to explain how God actually caused things to happen (however that may have been) because it would have doubtless made no sense to the people at the time (and maybe to us today).

    In short, that some Christian people would lovingly and gloriously refer to God's magnificent story of Creation as a myth does not in any way denigrate the story. The question seems to me is, what reason do we have for treating it as either myth or as science or as history? On what grounds do we take the story as whatever genre we take it?

    ReplyDelete
  36. Jeremy said...

    I do and will make mistakes on reading the Bible and many other things and always will.

    So you and I are united on that front. We DO read the Bible and are entirely capable of making mistakes. Fair enough and plenty of agreement on that front.

    You then go on to say...

    I am saying that God established relations between a man and a woman in the covenant of marriage as good. Therefore, homosexuality is wrong.

    What I'm striving to point out is that I realize fully that you think the Bible indicates that any and all forms of homosexual behavior are wrong. All I'm saying is that, having prayerfully read the Bible and seeking for God's answer on this question, I have come to a different conclusion than you have.

    I believe you are mistaken when you suggest that "[all] homosexuality is wrong." Period. I don't believe the Bible supports that point.

    You go on to ask...

    I've made this point several times and you haven't responded directly. Do you deny that God established that covenant in Genesis?

    I'm sorry, I didn't realize you felt I had left that unanswered. The Bible without a doubt does say that "for this purpose, a man shall leave his parents and cleave to his wife," or words to that effect. I don't disagree that the Bible says that. But that is not to say that, therefore, man + woman is the one and only way that marriage can be a good and blessed thing.

    After all, the Bible does not contain ALL teachings to deal with ALL situations. The Bible has no commentary directly on gay marriage, on pollution, on nuclear war, on the personal automobile, etc, etc. There are many topics that are not covered in the Bible. Gay marriage is one of them.

    The Bible DOES say that marriage is a good thing and that men and women married together is a good thing. But it does not go on to say, "...and that is the ONLY way marriage can be good..."

    Let's look at another example: The Bible clearly says... Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

    It's quite clear and straight from Jesus' lips: It is blessed to be poor, for the Kingdom of God belongs to the poor. Nothing at all unclear about that. However, that does not say that the Kingdom of God belongs ONLY to the poor.

    To take a single verse and say that that one verse contains the whole truth and the only ONE WAY of looking at a truth is to go beyond orthodox Christian understanding of the Bible, and just not logical besides. Or at least it seems to me.

    So, yes, we can agree that the Bible says it's good for men and women to be married. Where we disagree is whether or not that is the ONE AND ONLY way of viewing what is acceptable.

    Right?

    ReplyDelete
  37. As a follow up on the "myth" thing, may I ask: You don't find it offensive when someone refers to a parable of Jesus as an allegory, do you? Or when someone refers to Jesus' "pluck your eye" teaching as hyperbole?

    It's not offensive to suggest that those stories have engaged in a literary convention that is not to be taken literally to understand the truth, because, well, it's just a literary convention. No harm intended by calling a hyperbolic statement "hyperbole," or a parable, "allegory." In fact, the harm would come when someone tries to take such a non-literal passage literally, wouldn't you agree?

    So, IF Genesis were written in a mythological manner, there's no harm in referring to the story as myth, right? In fact, IF it is actually mythological language, then perhaps more harm could come from treating it as literal truth, right? So, the question is simply, "What literary genre are Genesis 1 and 2 written in?"

    Similarly for some of the historic passages of the OT - 1,2 Kings or Chronicles, for instance. Some people would suggest that those stories representing some GREAT TRUTHS of God are told in an epic storytelling style, not unlike Gilgamesh, in that regards. Of course, it's not the same as Gilgamesh, because we view it to be not simply stories, but stories representing some eternal truths. Still, IF it were written in an epic style, then identifying it as such is not treating the Bible lightly or wrongly.

    The question is (as you noted earlier) just a matter of striving to understand the correct genre. Isn't that a fair evaluation?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Dan,

    I'll be short as we are beginning to go long on these posts and the topic was homosexual marriage. We are agreed God said in Genesis "a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." This is the established relation that God deemed good. Every other reference to marriage and union refers to man and woman, husband and wife, nothing else. Every reference to homosexuality whether you want to try to say it refered to idol worship or other expresses it as a condemnation. 1 Corintians is the definitive work on marriage for the New Testament church in a place where all sorts of sexual conduct was taking place. Paul answers the churchs question concerning the issue by discussing marriage ONLY between husband and wife.

    In particular verse 10 of chapter 7 says; "To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord); a wife must not separate from her husband..." Paul (and the Lord, as Paul points out) is giving a message to all who are married. And what is the message to all who are married? Husband and wife must stay together. Homosexuals are not even considered in the discussion, because it is not a legitimate marriage arrangement.

    Unfortunately it appears we won't agree now on this issue, but the truth is plain. You said before it's not complicated and I would agree with that. A very wise man has said in my hearing on many occasions if the plain sense makes sense, then seek no other sense. With regard to homosexuality it quite simply is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Actually, wasn't the topic right and wrong and, by extension, how do we decide that?

    Regardless, I appreciate the conversation thus far. I feel you're ready to end this conversation, and so I thank you for the polite discourse we've had.

    I think the matters of how we go about reading the Bible, deciding what is and isn't to be taken literal, how we decide right and wrong, etc is a vastly interesting - if sometimes complicated - topic and I'm glad to continue the discussion anytime, if you're interested.

    For Christians, figuring out what style the parts of the Bible are written in and our hermeneutic or deciphering process is of great importance and one I sure need help figuring out. I know what makes sense to me and my church, but know that not every Christian group out there agrees.

    Anyway, thanks. I'll keep my eye peeled here, if that's all right.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Dan,

    I in no way was trying to end the conversation, just parse the comments down (we were up to three or so thoughts at one time). I don't feel i'm adept enough to carry on three lines of thought at once.

    My original post was on homosexuality (specifically the repeal of the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy for the military) and my focus on gay marriage quickly moved to a discussion on right and wrong, which was probably inevitable.

    There are so many issues that come in when this issue is discussed. Let's please continue, because as I said it is critical. So, let me go back if we could and get you to answer the question I posed (you spoke in general terms, I was wanted to find out what was you position):

    "Do you deny that God established that covenant in Genesis? Because you brought up the issue of "mythical language" are you suggesting that this is one of those "myths" that we shouldn't see as Truth (based on your definition of myth above)?"

    You gave a long response on what myth is and how it would make a difference IF mythical language were used. I don't want to just assume from that that you believe personally the passage I quoted from Genesis regarding man and woman was written as an allegory, and that it could be extended to "consenting adults" using your terminology from before. Could you please clarify this point?

    ReplyDelete
  41. I don't feel i'm adept enough to carry on three lines of thought at once.

    Fair enough, I don't blame you there.

    I guess I misunderstood. In reading your post, I thought the larger purpose of it was discussing HOW we go about deciding right and wrong.

    You asked...

    "Do you deny that God established that covenant in Genesis? Because you brought up the issue of "mythical language" are you suggesting that this is one of those "myths" that we shouldn't see as Truth (based on your definition of myth above)?"

    Do I deny that God "established that covenant [the covenant of marriage?] in Genesis"?

    The passages you cite as...

    "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it..." God saw all that he had made, and it was very good." and, "But for Adam no suitable helper was found...The the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man...For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,, and they will become one flesh."

    [continued...]

    ReplyDelete
  42. I don't know that God "established a covenant" in these stories. It describes the notion of marriage as a good thing, blessed of God. And in that example, it speaks specifically of men and women being wed. I don't believe that God was "establishing" that men and women were the one and only legitimate marriage in these passages. It gives the example of male/female marriage, but does not say "and this is the one and only way it can be."

    I tried to get at this earlier, when I said that an example in the Bible is not necessarily a rule. There is the example of male/female marriage, but that does not establish it as the one and only rule, right? There is the example in 2 Samuel of God "giving" David his "many" wives. But I don't think that example means that polygamy is the rule. There is the example of God commanding people to wipe out a city, but I don't think that example stands as a rule.

    Am I making sense? Just because something occurs in the bible does not mean it stands as the one true model on that issue. We would be doing poor biblical exegesis if we established that as a rule, and I'm sure you probably don't hold that as a rule for reading the Bible, do you?

    ReplyDelete
  43. To deal specifically with the Adam and Eve story, I would say that that DOES sound rather like the genre in question is more mythological in tone than historic. Of course, I'm no scholar, I could be wrong. But that's how it sounds to me.

    What genre do you think it sounds like to you? And, do you think that merely because that's how you've always thought of it, or because you've studied it and prayerfully considered it?

    (That's not an accusation, please understand, just a question. We - or at least I - have a habit of taking what we've been brought up with as the one and only way of thinking of things and I think serious Bible study should encourage us to consider things beyond just our fallible cultural traditions of humanity. I certainly always thought the Genesis story sounded like a history story, but that was before I gave much serious, prayerful thought to it. But that may be just me.)

    ReplyDelete
  44. Dan,

    OK, I think we are getting somewhere now. You believe God established marriage as a "notion" not a covenant relationship and this portion of Genesis "sound rather like the genre in question is more mythological in tone than historic".

    You asked my take on Genesis. The word Genesis has been translated to mean "birth", "geneology", or "history of origin". The book of Genesis begins with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." and continues to tell of the birth of all creation. Genesis 2:4 continues to say "This is the account of the heavens and teh earth when they were created." This is why I use the word account of creation. It is a record or telling of how things were done. This usage of account is used at least seven other times throughout the book.

    So, it is not so much a matter of what it sounds like to me. From the text itself we can see it is intended to be an account of God's establishment of creation, the primevel history of man and the patriarchal history of man. There may be many things that are hard to believe, but that does not make the book a myth, or allegorical narrative. It is an account of how God established things to be. Since this is God's revelation of how He established creation to be, the explicit description of man and woman becoming one flesh is by nature an exclusion of two men or two women.

    The Daytona 500 just ended and it occurred to me it might be a decent illustration. If I founded NASCAR racing and wrote the rulebook to describe how I came up with the idea and how racing would work (size of track, number of people in a crew, etc.) and fully described the rules of the race, type of automobile to be used, etc. It would be nonsensical for a prospective entrant to the race to show up with a motorcylce wouldn't it? Even if I don't specifically say in the directions that motorcycles aren't allowed. I'm describing the rules for an automobile race, which specifically excludes anything other than automobiles of the type I have explicitly described, unless there is a change or revision to that original description.

    Genesis is a history of origin by definition, the material describes iteself in the text as an account and gives an explicit description of how God created things to be. Because the text is desribed this way, that's the way I read it. I came to this both by reading the text as it is, and with additional commentaries, concordances and word studies, which confirmed what I read. Incidentally, one man and one woman was how I was raised and in this case everything I was told turns out to be supported by the text and the supplemental information i've investigated.

    I am specifically not commenting on the situational examples you gave in other places in scripture not to be evasive, but to focus on this particular point. I'll be glad to address them later.

    I'll read your comments to my explanation above, but my next question in the line of thought is:

    Do you think sodomy is a legitimate form of sexual behavior?

    ReplyDelete
  45. If, by "sodomy," you mean the standard English definition found in Merriam Webster - anal or oral ual practices - then, I think it is a form of ual behavior that is up to the individuals. The Bible nowhere condemns and I have no other logical or moral reason to consider these practices in themselves immoral.

    Why?

    ReplyDelete
  46. Jeremy said...

    So, it is not so much a matter of what it sounds like to me. From the text itself we can see it is intended to be an account of God's establishment of creation, the primevel history of man and the patriarchal history of man. There may be many things that are hard to believe, but that does not make the book a myth, or allegorical narrative. It is an account of how God established things to be.

    You earlier referred to the passage that says we ought not add to or take from the Scriptures. I think the point of that text is not to presume to speak for God in ways that God has not already spoken.

    I agree.

    You say, "From the text itself we can see it is intended to be an account of God's establishment of creation," and I agree, it IS an account. But looking at the text itself, it strikes me as a mythological account.

    Mythologies are ways of explaining the cosmos in simple stories - usually involving an individual person or small group of people/animals.

    They often can conclude in phrases like, "and THAT'S how the tiger got its stripes," or "and THAT'S how the world began."

    Many of the stories in Genesis fit that mode - And THAT'S how the world began... And THAT'S how the animals got their names... And THAT'S how people got their languages... And THAT'S why we see a rainbow in the sky..., etc, etc. They are not dissimilar in style than other traditional mythic stories.

    Yes? No? Can you see what I'm speaking of here?

    Also, could you clarify for me: Do you agree that IF God wanted to relay the stories of our beginnings in mythological language, then there is nothing wrong with referring to Genesis stories as myth? That this is no different than referring to Jesus using hyperbole as hyperbole? That doing so does not discount or minimize the truths being passed on?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Jeremy said...

    You believe God established marriage as a "notion" not a covenant relationship

    To be clear: My point was that the Bible does not say that God established marriage as a covenant relationship, therefore, I'm not going to add to what the Bible says or presume to speak for God and say that the Bible says something it does not say. As someone who respects the Bible and agrees that we ought not add to it, I am sure you can respect that.

    For my part, I DO think that marriage is a covenant relationship, or at least that it can be described as such. I just don't want to presume to say God says something that God has not said or that God did something that we have no record of God doing. The Bible does not say, "man for woman and ONLY that is the only legitimate way to do marriage," and so I don't think we can safely say that this is God's will or design.

    Doing so is extrabiblical and it's fine if you want to say, "It's my opinion that marriage should be reserved for opposite gender couples," I just object to making the claim that the Bible says that, since it doesn't.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Dan,

    It appears I moved too fast again, sorry. I'll save the sodomy discussion until the more general is resolved.

    You said: "I think the point of that text is not to presume to speak for God in ways that God has not already spoken."

    Exactly right. God has spoken and the Word is that revelation. We must look to the Word and the words that are used. The word "account" is translated "geneology", "geneological record", "historical record". You are using words like "it sounds to me like" and now "it strikes me as a mythological account". I just don't see how when the text clearly says that something is a historical or geneological record that you can arrogate to yourself the option to disregard the historical nature in lieu of what it "sounds like" or "strikes you" as. We look at the text and the context. In this case, the text clearly says the Genesis is a historical account.

    Also, you didn't comment on my illustration. Can you see how entering a motorcycle in a NASCAR race would not be correct, even it weren't specifically excluded in the rulebook?

    My comments relative to marriage and the covenant relationship come from a study of the whole Bible, I should have made that clear. Old and New Testament discussions on marriage make it clear that it is a relationship that is not to be broken, that husband and wife enter into a covenant with one another and with God. I don't want to get sidetracked with that discussion, but suffice it to say I was not intended to imply covenant based on the Genesis verses alone, although I know that's how it appeared.

    Is "sounds like" or "strikes me as" a legitimate hermeneutic for interpretation of scripture, do you think?

    ReplyDelete
  49. Jeremy said...

    We must look to the Word and the words that are used. The word "account" is translated "geneology", "geneological record", "historical record".

    Are you a Hebrew scholar, Jeremy? I'm not, I can tell you right off the bat. Do you know anything about the word translated "account?" Or, are you just going by the English translations?

    If we're both just both going by the English translations, then...

    1. I guess you're saying it seems to you that the words "account" or "geneology" suggest a literal historical record in the sense that we would strive to write a geneology or a history today. Is that correct?

    2. I'm saying that it does not seem to me to suggest anything of the sort. We're talking about oral traditions from a prehistoric time that were passed down orally for generations before they were ever committed to writing. It is also a record coming from a pre-modern, pre-scientific time period. In agreement so far?

    3. I believe that to presume that ancient storytellers would hold to the same rigid methods of telling history that we strive to hold to today is a bit presumptuous and not supported by facts as we know them. When we record history today, we place a high premium on getting facts and dates exactly right. Do you have any historical, scholarly reason to presume that the storytellers in prehistory would have strived to record history in the same way we do today? I know of absolutely no reason to make that presumption.

    Some have suggested that doing so is a way of imposing modern rules of writing/record-keeping back on a prehistoric, pre-scientific, pre-literate, pre-calendar people and doing such is bad scholarship, it's anachronistic chauvinism (presuming the way WE tell stories is the one and only way of telling stories). Does that makes sense? The problem is one of context, and we both have agreed that striving to understand context is absolutely vital in bible study, right?

    Am I making sense?

    ReplyDelete
  50. Jeremy said...

    I just don't see how when the text clearly says that something is a historical or geneological record that you can arrogate to yourself the option to disregard the historical nature in lieu of what it "sounds like" or "strikes you" as. We look at the text and the context.

    Yes, the text says that. But WE are the ones who assign meaning to the phrase. You appear to assign it the meaning that when the author said "account" or "record," that it means "a historical account written much as it would today with absolutely no mix of fanciful fiction or poetic license added in." Am I correct?

    I'm reading that SAME passage that says "account" but I am not making the assumption that they mean "account" in the same sense as modern writers of history would mean it. I see no biblical nor historical reason to make that presumption and I see a great deal of reason NOT to make that presumption.

    You are correct, we need to look at text and context and I think you may be missing the context. That is at least certainly the case for me for the first 30 years of my life and the first 20 years of my Christian life and Bible study.

    Jeremy said...

    Is "sounds like" or "strikes me as" a legitimate hermeneutic for interpretation of scripture, do you think?

    Yes. After all, aren't you saying, "It sounds like to me that when they use the word 'account,' they mean a historical account in the same sense as we tell history today..."

    So, yes, we read a passage, we strive to understand context and the text and we see what it sounds like. What else are you suggesting we do?

    After all, when Jesus says "cut off your hand," you don't do so. Why? Because it sounds like to you that Jesus is engaging in hyperbole. The text does not say Jesus is engaging in hyperbole, it is a judgment call you and I have (correctly) made to better understand Jesus' meaning.

    Right?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Jeremy asked...

    Also, you didn't comment on my illustration. Can you see how entering a motorcycle in a NASCAR race would not be correct, even it weren't specifically excluded in the rulebook?

    I don't know. I'm sorry, but you've picked an illustration with which I am wholly unfamiliar - the whole NASCAR thing. I have no idea if it would be appropriate for a motorcycle to enter the race or not. I would guess I'd tend to think that if the people running the race specifically didn't want motorcycles participating, they'd exclude them specifically.

    So, it may just be that I don't get your illustration, not being familiar with that world. But it does not seem to me to be especially helpful in this discussion. I don't think God is opposed to gay marriage. There is nothing in the Bible specifically excluding gay folk from marriage (nor, of course, specifically INCLUDING them in marriage). It is a topic on which the Bible is silent.

    And, as I have noted, just because a topic is not covered in the Bible does not mean it is specifically okay or specifically NOT okay. It's generally something we have to use our moral reasoning to sort out, yes?

    For instance, in all the times polygamy is mentioned in the Bible, it is never condemned. I could be wrong, but I don't think that there is a single condemnation of polygamy. In fact, we see that King David and many other biblical heroes had multiple wives. Abraham had a wife and a concubine and that is not condemned. In 2 Samuel, we see God saying that God GAVE David his many wives. ("And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things" 2 Sam 12)

    So, if the only examples of polygamy in the Bible are on the favorable side AND if polygamy is never condemned in the Bible, does that mean that you believe polygamy to be a good thing? If the Bible is the "rulebook" for marriage and polygamy is okay, does that mean polygamy is okay to you?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Dan said: "Are you a Hebrew scholar, Jeremy? I'm not, I can tell you right off the bat. Do you know anything about the word translated "account?" Or, are you just going by the English translations?"

    I am not a Hebrew scholor, Dan, but I do have a Hebrew dictionary and a concordance. If I don't know a word that is used in a book i'm reading in English I go to the English dictionary, I don't have to be an English scholor to do that. I'm not being sarcastic here, or glib, there are tools available to understand what these words mean, and we can use our intellect to look them up.

    Dan said: "But WE are the ones who assign meaning to the phrase. You appear to assign it the meaning that when the author said "account" or "record," that it means "a historical account written much as it would today with absolutely no mix of fanciful fiction or poetic license added in." Am I correct?"

    No, you are incorrect here. God wrote the Bible through many men. We are not at liberty to arrogate to ourselves the right to assign meaning to the Bible. God assigned the meaning when He inspired it to be written. There is a fundamental difference between reading a passage to find the meaning that was assigned to it and reading a passage to give it it's meaning. God decides what the passage means, not us. The account given in the Genesis passage concerning man and woman means a historical account not because I say it does but because that is the word God chose for that passage.

    ReplyDelete
  53. I want to get to an understanding on the point of the last post before we get into any other discussion on cutting off hands, polygamy or any other reference. If we don't agree on how to red the Bible we can't be discussing any of these issues.

    In fact, the reason we can't discuss it is because there will be an infinite number of meanings. You have your meaning, I have my meaning, the millions of others that read the Bible have their millions of other meanings and the whole thing becomes meaningless.

    I'm sorry the NASCAR illustration was not effective. I don't even follow the sport it was just in the news. My point was simply if a race of any kind, a board game of any kind, etc. comes with a set of instructions for how the race, game etc. is to be played it necessarily excludes all others. The designer of the game gets to decide what the rules are and anything not specified is against the rules. You may play a different way, but you won't be playing that game anymore, you'll be playing your game and borrowing someone else's equipment. That is what we have to be careful of as followers of Christ, playing our game with His equipment.

    ReplyDelete
  54. I'm sorry, I must not have been clear. Let me try to explain myself again.

    Jeremy said...

    God wrote the Bible through many men. We are not at liberty to arrogate to ourselves the right to assign meaning to the Bible.

    We agree that God assigns meaning to God's Word. It is what God means that is the important thing. We agree on that.

    Now, what I'm talking about is this: When WE read the Bible and we come across a passage that says, "Pluck out your eye..." WE have to strive to understand the meaning there. WE have to prayerfully strive to study and read and get to the meaning of that passage, if we are concerned about what it means.

    Do we agree thus far? The Bible does not jump out and say, "THIS is how you must interpret THAT passage," but WE must seek to understand that passage.

    Now, when you read the passage that says, "Pluck out your eye," YOU have decided that this is NOT a literal command from God. Rather YOU have decided that it is hyperbole (I'm assuming we agree on that point, that Jesus was using hyperbole there).

    Am I correct? I know that I have certainly decided that the "Pluck out your eye" passage is not a literal command, but rather I have decided that it must be hyperbole, or something of that sort.

    When we read anything, WE have to use OUR reasoning to decide what it means, to assign meaning to the words. That is how literacy works, if I'm not mistaken.

    Of course, we could be wrong in striving to understand God's intent, nonetheless, WE have to use OUR reasoning to assign meaning, or to glean meaning from the text, ANY text.

    Is that making sense?

    ReplyDelete
  55. Jeremy said...

    My point was simply if a race of any kind, a board game of any kind, etc. comes with a set of instructions for how the race, game etc. is to be played it necessarily excludes all others.

    The difference, I believe, is that the Bible is not a game. It is a book of Truth and a book of Truths. There aren't specific 1, 2, 3, step-by-step rules on how to live life exactly and specifically. Rather, there are TRUTHS that we use to live life generally.

    That is, the Bible does not give us step by step instructions on how to organize a church group, how to hold a church service, how to organize a gov't, how to manage a business or how to wed. Rather, there are general guidelines - we must be truthful, use fair measures, make just judgments, live lives of love towards our fellow humans, etc.

    I don't believe the Bible has specific game-like guidelines on marriage. Do you think it does? If so, feel free to show me.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Jeremy said...

    I'm not being sarcastic here, or glib, there are tools available to understand what these words mean, and we can use our intellect to look them up.

    I absolutely agree, and I use those sorts of tools and have come to believe that many of the Genesis, Exodus stories which come from a pre-written history of humanity are written in a more mythological style of prose, rather than a more historical style.

    Jeremy said...

    If we don't agree on how to read the Bible we can't be discussing any of these issues.

    Not a bad point. Perhaps it would be helpful to give you an idea of the approach I take to reading the Bible, my hermeneutics, if you will. When reading the Bible, we...

    1. Consider the individual passage in context of its time
    2. Consider the individual passage in context of the whole Bible
    3. Consider the individual passage thru the teachings of Jesus
    4. Always strive to understand the language and the context
    5. Use the clear to interpret the obscure (that is, clearly we are to love our enemies - that is a clear front-to-back teaching of the Bible and we can use that passage to help us understand other perhaps harder to understand passages, such as ones that call for the destruction of our enemies...)
    6. Consider tradition, to hear what others have said in the past...

    Criteria such as that are what I use as I prayerfully engage in Bible study and seeking God's will. Sound reasonable to you?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Dan,

    I would agree with your points on God having assigned meaning and we read the Bible to find God's meaning. The Bible is certainly not a game, there are eternal ramifications to how we live our life. As I stated the game was an illustration. As with all other illustrations, if it isn't helpful drop it.

    If we agree that God establishes the meaning of the text. And if we agree that it is of eternal significance to understand the text of scripture. And if we agree that context is key. Then why can we not agree that when the word account is used, it is meaningful, and that if it means in the original Hebrew a "geneology", a "geneological record" or a "historical record" that it is intended as a historical account and not a mythological one, regardless of how it "sounds"?

    If we can't agree on that I don't see how we can move on.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Dan,

    I would agree that what you presented is a good system for reading and interpreting scripture. Given your point number 5, though, "Use the clear to interpret the obscure", how is the word account and it's usage here unclear?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Jeremy...

    Then why can we not agree that when the word account is used, it is meaningful...

    We DO agree that it is meaningful...

    Jeremy...

    and that if it means in the original Hebrew a "geneology", a "geneological record" or a "historical record"...

    I'd say that we agree on that point, too. I, for one, think that word probably means EXACTLY a historical record.

    Jeremy...

    ...that it is intended as a historical account and not a mythological one, regardless of how it "sounds"?

    AND, I agree that it IS intended as a historical account. We agree exactly on all of that much, as far as it goes.

    Where we start diverging is that I believe that it sounds like, in context, a historical account written in mythological language.

    Saying that something is mythological does not suggest there is no historicity to it, it's just a way of expressing a historical tale in non-literal, sometimes fanciful or fictional manner.

    In the Iroquois myth of creation, the world is resting on top of a turtle. The creation of the earth, in that story, IS the historical account being told. It IS based exactly on a historical thing, the very real creation of the world. But it tells it in a fanciful manner.

    And so, we don't really disagree EXCEPT on whether or not it is a historical story being told in a modern, fact-specific fashion or in the style of the day, which was more mythological.

    So, is it your position that storytellers back in a pre-recorded history period tended to write things in such a way that strict adherence to factual accuracy was a big deal? Is it your position that the Bible suggests this? If so, where does the Bible suggest this? If not, then on what basis would you make the presumption that stories back then were told in a modern style? Or, if you're not suggesting that they were written in a modern style, what style/genre are you suggesting they were told in?

    Another question to consider: Are there ANY pre-written-history stories that we know of that are told in a literal factual manner? If we don't have ANY record of anything being written in such a way (and I don't know for sure, but I know of none), then it would seem fairly incredible to suppose that these Genesis stories were told in a way that was different than anywhere else.

    Are you very familiar with pre-recorded history stories? You could try looking up the Epic of Gilgamesh, that would be something that is as old as the Genesis stories, if not older.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Jeremy asked...

    Given your point number 5, though, "Use the clear to interpret the obscure", how is the word account and it's usage here unclear?

    I don't think it IS unclear, as perhaps you see in my previous answer. What is in question is whether or not it is clearly referring to history written in mythological style or if it's history written in a modern history textbook style.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Again, I'll use Jesus' "gouge out your eyes" passage. Is the meaning of that language obscure in the least? I don't think so. Jesus is literally speaking of gouging out eyes, clearly so. However, the genre or style of speaking he is (clearly, I think) using is hyperbole. To say that Jesus used hyperbole there is not to say that the language was unclear. But if someone were suggesting that it ought to be taken literally, rather than figuratively, well, they'd be off on a wrong path, I think we both agree.

    Again, the cogent questions there are, what is meant there? What is Jesus' intending with these comments? What style of speaking is Jesus using when he said that?

    In the Genesis Creation stories, I think what is clearly meant is that God is the Great Creator, that God has made a good world and people in God's image, that we are to be caretakers of this world, etc, etc... There are many meanings and truths we can rightly glean from this story. What I don't think we CAN glean is a science lesson on how the world was physically created, what that process was/is. I don't think that the creation story was written in that manner, and I think that is abundantly clear.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Dan,

    I'll have to admit here that I do not know where to go with you on this. I am familiar with myths and pre-recorded history stories. And I think I understand your position. I think the best I can say at this point is that you and I both are responsible before God for our beliefs. I am sure you will agree.

    You have made your point clear, that you don't believe homosexual marriage to be condemned by the Word of God or immoral in any way, nor do you believe that homosexual acts are condemned by the Word of God or immoral in any way.

    I hope that I have made my point clear that I believe God established how human relationships were to be, that the husband/wife relationship is the only one that is spoken of, specifically condoned, or in any other way considered legitimate throughout the entirety of the Bible, and that sexual immorality would then consist of anything other than intimacy between a husband and a wife.

    We both must align our lives to what we believe and give an account for those beliefs and that life. I will continue to pray for us both. I'm sure we will both continue to love God and other people, we will just disagree on this point and whether the actions undertaken (i.e. the lifestyle chosen) by some people are sinful or not.

    Again, glad to have you come by the site, and I hope to be able to discuss another matter at another time. Perhaps in agreement next time.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Thanks for the discussion. And I hope that it is clear that we are agreeing much more than we're disagreeing, or at least that's how it seems to me.

    We agree that we ought to strive to align ourselves with God's will.

    We agree that God is the creator of this world.

    We agree that Jesus is God's son.

    We agree that we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus.

    We agree that we highly value the bible's teachings and especially Jesus' specific teachings.

    We agree that striving to understand the meaning of the Bible's teachings is important, even vital, to our spiritual health.

    I'm relatively sure that we agree that not all parts of the Bible are intended to be taken literally, right? That some parts are imagery of one sort or the other - that there are parables, hyperbole, stories, poetry, etc, - and that we ought to seek to find the TRUTHS of God in these stories, whatever their genre, as the TRUTHS being taught are the vital part, right?

    I'd say we agree probably much more than we disagree.

    Thanks again. Peace.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Dan,

    "We agree that we ought to strive to align ourselves with God's will.

    We agree that God is the creator of this world.

    We agree that Jesus is God's son.

    We agree that we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus.

    We agree that we highly value the bible's teachings and especially Jesus' specific teachings.

    We agree that striving to understand the meaning of the Bible's teachings is important, even vital, to our spiritual health."


    I would say that we agree more than we disagree. Thanks again for the discussion.

    ReplyDelete

Thanks for contributing a comment to this site. Please keep the comments civil and respectful and the language clean.